Let me start off by saying that your ps had me rolling on the floor,
laughing so loudly coworkers were contemplating calling a paramedic, I
may have wet myself, and I certainly will have a smile all day. I'm
also considering starting a pro wrestling themed hamburger joint where
tech support will be on the menu. I'm thinking of Larry Ellison, John
Claude Van Dam and Hollywood Hulk Hogan for initial capitalists. Hold
your water for the IPO, it's gonna be a whopper, so to speak, boys.
Now on to the special sauce of this message.... The old saying no one
was ever fired for buying IBM has certainly transformed into
....Microsoft. And I think for many projects you're on the money with
being able to sell a project by dropping the term ASP and waiting for
the drool to flow. I'm thinking more of projects where I'd provide a
complete 'solution' (boy I hate that word), such as hosting with
search, message board, etc. and by using JSP I could drop the Java
buzzword, and have it be fast, scalable, and be able to change
templates to give everyone a different look. I wasn't really thinking
of it as something that I would offer to huge clients who want to know
how each line of code was working.
I'm also interested in it for my own projects (websites, products,
etc.). And I don't think it will forever be a niche product. THere are
a lot of interesting developments, and I expect to see more. THere are
already servlet/jsp engines that allow developers to use ECMAscript
(nee Livewire, aka server side javascript), Cold Fusion tags, and you
can bet your bippee ASP is on the backburner (maybe I could name a
burger after ASP- dynamic, familiar, not always reliable but fairly
easy....I'm thinking rare with American Cheese and Mayo or something).
The reason for my enthusiasm over something like ASP is I get the
impression that as with the move from client-server programming to
n-tier programming, JSP offers us a way to seperate the aspects of
dynamic webserving. There can be a layer for programming, a layer for
display, even a layer for scripting or interpreted programming that
will function as a compiled program.
I understand the sentiments about opensource work, and it's not
unfounded. And I'm not telling people to think what I think or do what
I do, but it seems like fun to me, and I'm comfortable with it. Can I
get you a Java Soda Pop (JSP) with that?
Josh
---Scott Ferguson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
> Summary of your message: Product software has no value.
Distribution, tech
> support and consulting have value, but writing software is worthless.
>
> Implication: No sane business will create software for JSP.
>
> Maybe you're right. But I want you to think hard about the secondary
> implications of JSP with no commercial support.
>
> Compare the market for JSP and ASP. Not the product, the market.
ASP has say
> 100,000 developers? JSP has 1,000? Maybe? ASP has support from many
> development/editing tools. It has many web sites with tutorials and
examples
> and huge libraries of code. It has several books and tutorials.
ASP has many
> consultants. It is available from ISPs. ISPs won't touch JSP, nor
servlets,
> because there is still no solid deployment for them commercial or
> non-commercial.
>
> If you're a consultant, how valuable is your knowledge of JSP?
Zero? Do you
> even bother putting it on your resume? ASP consultants brag about
it on their
> resume. ASP is valuable to consultants. JSP is close to worthless.
>
> If you're working in a larger company, how hard is it to convince
management
> to use JSP?
>
> Why is JSP in severe trouble? In part because of spec problems.
Mostly,
> though, because no sane business will spend any effort on JSP. That
means no
> commercial-quality implementations (and Apache JServ is not commercial
> quality.) That means no technical support beyond this list. That
means
> neither books, nor tutorials, nor consultancies.
>
> Let me give you two real, not hypothetical examples.
>
> The open source servlet runner, Apache JServ, is slow, it's very
difficult to
> install, it's still in beta and it still missing the servlet 2.1
API. And
> servlets are much more mature than JSP. We've got a prototype which
cuts the
> latency from 35ms to 11ms. (That's including the fixed 6ms Apache
> overhead.) I think we can make installation easy even for novices.
Will you
> ever see it? No. Why? Because it's not worth our time to develop
it. So
> you can wait and hope someone will volunteer to improve JServ. It
may
> happen.
>
> Our primary product, Resin, quickly approaching beta, brings
JavaScript to
> JSP. Even those of you who are Java hackers should see the value of
making
> JSP available to non-Java programmers. The more people who use JSP,
the more
> valuable your JSP experience is, and the easier it is to convince
management
> or customers to let you use JSP.
>
> We're 90% convinced to drop JSP and adopt ASP. It's an easier sell.
People
> who develop with ASP can then deploy on whatever server they want
with our
> product and since it's in Java, can use Java components instead of
COM if they
> want.
>
> Why abandon JSP? Mostly because the market is small, the customers
are cheap,
> and it's not likely that it'll really take off, especially if it
continues to
> discourages non-experts and non-Java scripts. Also the 1.0 spec is
months
> late, incomplete, and all indications are that it is unfriendly to
non-Java
> languages.
>
> I don't expect you to care about one tiny company's decision to
abandon
> JSP support. Just decide for yourself if it's an exception or a
symptom why
> JSP isn't receiving support.
>
> Scott Ferguson
> Caucho Technology
>
> p.s. The statement "what about making money from distributing
computers,
> ..., providing tech support, from consulting?" is the most asinine
statement
> I've heard in months. You can also make money professional wrestling,
> flipping hamburgers, or pimping. If you value software development
less than
> tech support, don't be surprised if no one jumps to write software
for you.
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