Hi all,
For what it's worth, I agree with Jason here. I'd like to see JSP focus
more on scriptlets + beans, rather than the approach that Model 2 pushes.
I'd also really like to see his suggestions implemented as part of the 1.0
spec.
I've been building web based apps for the past three years, and am quite
familiar with Java (the language), as well as other web development
languages (mod_perl, ASP+COM, Cold Fusion, Miva).
I recently just wrapped up a fairly large project built on ASP + VB
components hosted inside MTS. This was an application built over a period
of about 6 months, with over 25 people involved (pretty even split between
managers + component developers + asp/html developers + testers).
Surprise surprise, it's a pretty solid application. We ran through the
usual caveats for any Microsoft environment (strange bugs, odd crashes) but
the final application is quite solid and works quite well. It's been
interesting to see it get developed, and it definately shows where
Microsof't's environment has it's strengths, as well as it's weaknesses.
Bottom line is, building business logic into components and the front end in
HTML works. Really well.
I think that JSP+beans builds on the good parts of ASP+COM, and has few of
that environments weaknesses (weak language, 'voodoo' bugs that come and go
mysteriously, no low-level control). In my opinion, the Model 2 approach is
needlessly complex, and forces people to think in a completely different
manner, with no compelling benefits.
As pointed out in an excellent article by Philip Greenspun
(http://photo.net/wtr/application-servers.html), one of ASP's major
strengths is it's "gentle slope" approach:
"The most popular server-side programming systems are those that give
developers a gentle slope into Real Software Development. Consider the
hugely popular Microsoft ASP system. An HTML document is a legal ASP
program. It doesn't compute anything and its output never changes, but it is
legal in the IIS/ASP system. When the Web developer gets a little more
advanced, he or she can start putting in some magic escape tags and
embedding simple Visual Basic code fragments in the ASP documents. Six
months later, the developer can't figure out how to meet the site's
publishing goals and calls in a programmer. The programmer builds a COM
object whose methods the developer can invoke from the embedded VB. When the
service isn't running so well on one computer, the publishers call the
programmer back to build a DCOM object."
Replace 'ASP' with 'JSP' and 'COM' with 'beans' and you have what JSP+Beans
promises. And unlike JSP, the following statement isn't true (also taken
from above article).
"The end result of this process is laughably unreliable since NT isn't truly
crash-proof, IIS doesn't work so well, ASP is a bit flakey, and the COM/DCOM
stuff isn't reliable or fast. But the process by which the publisher got to
this end result is perfectly reasonable."
JSP could be the environment that provides the same benefits, with none of
the drawbacks (ideally).
The other issue I have with the tags espoused by Model 2 is that they are
somehow more "presentation specific" because they "look" like HTML tags.
Their appearance is entirely superficial, and represent a completely new
concept for new developers, the people they're supposed to address in the
first place.
As [EMAIL PROTECTED] pointed out, just about every 'HTML Programmer'
(whatever that means) is familiar with the obj.method() syntax. Let's also
not discount the intelligence of most web developers, just about everyone
that I've shown cleanly written JSP code to can figure out what's happening
pretty quickly, even those without much programming experience.
Rob, in your response you stated:
> As for newbies creating semi-complex systems in JSP (w/o Servlets)...
> good luck. Without model two, JSP is a project manager's worst
> nightmare.
Are you stating that JSP+Beans is a project managers worst nightmare? Or
just miles of spaghetti logic JSP code?
This is a good discussion, and I'd like to see it continue.
Darren.
----- Original Message -----
From: Jason P. Bright <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, April 10, 1999 12:39 PM
Subject: JSP Suggestions!
> Forward:
> I truely believe that JSP and Beans are central in dynamic content
creation. They
> are crutial to the development of the next wave of internet
applications. SUN must
> continue to invest in this truely object oriented technology. I
have written several
> web application frameworks myself, and see the grace and utility
of JSP. JSP seperates
> interface creation from the application logic while incorperating
session and
> application management. JSP allows designers to design and
engineers to engineer.
> I am dedicated to its success.
>
> Problem:
> JSP is becoming too complex.
> The current vision as discussed emphasizes "model 2".
Servlets talk to the
> application instantiate beans and forward requests which
contain session
> information and request information. This will scare many
away and limit
> the usability of object oriented graphic tools for
automatic page creation.
>
> Suggestion:
> Increase the awareness of JSP Aware Beans. Make Beans a
central concept
> in the design of JSP.
>
> Method:
> Add execution cycle specification and additional bean
environment passing
> to JSP1.0
> a) through introspection call setSession,
setServletContext,
> setRequest, setResponse to bean execution cycle.
> b) add set-each-request parameter (called "set") model to
> JSP1.0 (as apposed to setoncreate or
setfromrequest)
> c) implement and add to spec an execution cycle as follows
> 1. setoncreate called (during initial creation
only)
> 2. setSession, setServletContext, setRequest,
> setResponse are called
> 3. set (described in "b" above) called
> 4. setfromrequest called
> 5. processRequest called (work of page done here)
> 6. getXXX called by JSP
> d) elminate attempt at an additional programming language
as seen in 0.92
> Use scriptlets. Do not overcomplicate the
interface use JAVA and
> scriptlets instead of creating a tangent language.
> 1. remove "LOOP" use <%for(xxxx){%> html <%}%>
> 2. remove "property" concept in favor of
<%=beanname.getXXXX%>
> e) GET ON THE BEAN BANDWAGON!!!! ditch crowbars and make
beans central
> to the server function. Anything short of this
will kill JSP (imho)
>
> That's about as much time as I have right now. If there is any interest
in my opinion
> I will comment on my other concerns (such as application, session, and
request function)
> Hope I helped.
>
> -jason
>
> Jason Bright
> Pres., BrighTech Inc.
> 212 3rd Ave N #435
> Minneapolis, MN 55401
> (612) 317-0737
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
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