I totally agree! Unfortunately Mr Wells has taken the JSP vs. Servlets
discussion and the JSP vs. Templates discussion and turned them into an
ongoing plug for webmacro. I for one think his arguments suffer because of
it.
Dan
> ----------
> From: Yonn M. Samuels[SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 1999 12:31 PM
> To: Kirkdorffer, Daniel; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: Re: JSP vs Servlets?
>
> Do we have to sink to this? Reasonable people should be able to disagree
> and maintain a civil tone. How about it?
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Kirkdorffer, Daniel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: Tuesday, November 09, 1999 12:21 PM
> Subject: Re: JSP vs Servlets?
>
>
> >Since Mr. Wells appears hell bent on telling us all that webmacro "was
> >recently selected as one of the best three servlet
> >products of 1999 by the Java report" here is the actual category it was
> >selected in:
> >
> >Servlet Tools, Components, & Frameworks
> >
> >Java Report also had the following categories:
> >
> >Application Servers
> >Compilers & VMs
> >Database Middleware
> >Database Tools
> >GUI Components
> >IDEs
> >Testing Tools
> >Third-Party Components
> >Utilities
> >Web Authoring & Management Tools
> >
> >Note: no category for best specification, go figure.
> >
> >In the Servlet Tools, Components, & Frameworks category the winners were
> >(Jason Hunter please take a bow...):
> >
> >COM.OREILLY.SERVLET PACKAGE:
> >JASON HUNTER
> >
> >SERVLETEXEC:
> >NEW ATLANTA COMMUNICATIONS
> >
> >WEBMACRO SERVLET FRAMEWORK:
> >SEMIOTEK INC.
> >
> >Hurl your url to http://www.javareport.com/html/products/wr_choice.shtml
> for
> >the complete list of winners.
> >
> >That's about as much advertising of webmacro that I think the readers of
> >either of these lists are interested in.
> >
> >Dan
> >
> >
> >> ----------
> >> From: Justin Wells[SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> >> Reply To: A mailing list for discussion about Sun Microsystem's
> Java
> >> Servlet API Technology.
> >> Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 1999 11:41 AM
> >> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >> Subject: Re: JSP vs Servlets?
> >>
> >> Quoting Jay Macarty ([EMAIL PROTECTED]):
> >> > Frank,
> >> > JSP is useful in a number of situations as summarized below:
> >> >
> >> > 1. JSP "hides" much of the nuts-and-bolts of the servlet code. When
> used
> >> in
> >> > combination with Java beans, a developer without a detailed
> background
> >> in
> >> > servlets, say a person normally responsible for HTML page layout, can
> >> still
> >> > construct a powerful and useful web application.
> >>
> >> This is not an advantage of JSP over servlets, assuming that the
> servlet
> >> writer chooses to use one of the template systems available.
> >>
> >> In fact, it's a disadvantage because with a good template system the
> >> servlet writer can do an even better job of the separation.
> >>
> >>
> >> > 2. JSP helps separate presentation from program logic. Even though
> the
> >> final
> >> > code generated by the JSP procedure builds the needed code to write
> out
> >> the
> >> > HTML, it is much easier to simply update the HTML in the JSP file and
> >> > arrange things how ever you want and let the processor handle the
> >> details.
> >> > This even opens the door to allowing a page layout designer do the
> HTML
> >> > while a Java programmer codes the logic.
> >>
> >> JSP does a very poor job of this, since by design it encourages you to
> >> freely mix Java and HTML in the .jsp file.
> >>
> >> A good template system does a much better job of effecting this
> >> separation.
> >> In fact, JSP only really provides you with support for a model versus
> >> view+controller separation--it takes a template system to realize the
> >> full value of the model/view/controller design.
> >>
> >> The model is your collection of Java beans, coming out of your EJB
> server,
> >> or your database, or whatever. Your servlet is the controller,
> implemented
> >> in 100% pure Java, and takes responsibility over controlling the
> session
> >> (loading objects, authenticating the user, selecting the result data,
> >> deciding on what view to return). Obviously the templates become the
> >> view portion of the design.
> >>
> >> With JSP it's easy to use beans plus JSP gunk, but harder to effect
> >> the full three way separation (harder in the sense that there is
> >> absolutely no architectural support for doing so. You have to
> >> remember to maintain the separation yourself, at every single point.)
> >>
> >> > 3. As mentioned briefly above, JSP's ability to take advantage of
> Java
> >> beans
> >> > can be a very useful tool in building applications.
> >>
> >> WebMacro can do this as well--it uses introspection much the same way
> >> that JSP does, only in a template model. Other template systems, such
> >> as FreeMarker, can come close, though you have to write adapters.
> >>
> >>
> >> > 4. Because of JSP's tendency to look like Microsoft Active Server
> Pages,
> >> > ASP, in many respects, it is sometimes easier for a developer making
> the
> >> > transition from ASP to servlets to start out with JSP.
> >>
> >> This is an advantage of JSP. Though not one I'd be proud of.
> >>
> >> > I would not say that a developer should choose either JSP or servlet
> >> > development exclusively but I think JSP certainly has its place and I
> am
> >> in
> >> > the process of converting some of my pages to JSP which seem to be a
> >> better
> >> > fit (i.e. an application log-in page).
> >>
> >> I think JSP is suitable for quickly hacked together applications where
> >> design is not an issue. I tend to use perl in such situations, though,
> >> since it's more rapid development than Java.
> >>
> >> When I move to Java, it's because there are bigger issues, and then
> >> design becomes important. So I stick to servlets with templates.
> >>
> >> Of course, as the creator of WebMacro I'm entirely biased. Although I
> >> created WebMacro because of the bias, not the other way around.
> >>
> >> WebMacro is a free template system which you can download and use at
> >> no charge. It was recently selected as one of the best three servlet
> >> products of 1999 by the Java report.
> >>
> >> http:/webmacro.org
> >>
> >>
> >> Justin
> >>
> >>
> __________________________________________________________________________
> >> _
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> >>
> >> Archives: http://archives.java.sun.com/archives/servlet-interest.html
> >> Resources: http://java.sun.com/products/servlet/external-resources.html
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> >>
> >
> >=========================================================================
> ==
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> >FAQs on JSP can be found at:
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> > http://www.esperanto.org.nz/jsp/jspfaq.html
>
>
>
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