Quoting Kirkdorffer, Daniel ([EMAIL PROTECTED]):
> I totally agree! Unfortunately Mr Wells has taken the JSP vs. Servlets
> discussion and the JSP vs. Templates discussion and turned them into an
> ongoing plug for webmacro. I for one think his arguments suffer because of
> it.
Although obviously I'm going to talk primarily in terms of WebMacro, I
think I've mentioned quite a fair bit that most of my arguments in
favour of servlets also apply to other template systems, such as
FreeMarker. They're not things that apply just to WebMacro.
For obvious reasons I'm not as familiar with the way FreeMarker does
things, so I tend to talk in terms of what WebMacro does. But I believe
that, except for not using Java beans, FreeMarker is largely equivalent,
for the purposes of this discussion.
I have no idea why you have become so hostile. I'm not going to respond
in kind. I've tried to present informative, reasoned opinions--and I
recognize that not everyone will agree with me.
However, I would like to point out that I wrote WebMacro *because* I
hold these opinions. Also WebMacro is free, so I don't directly benefit
from people using it--although it obviously makes me happy.
Justin
>
> Dan
>
> > ----------
> > From: Yonn M. Samuels[SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 1999 12:31 PM
> > To: Kirkdorffer, Daniel; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Subject: Re: Re: JSP vs Servlets?
> >
> > Do we have to sink to this? Reasonable people should be able to disagree
> > and maintain a civil tone. How about it?
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Kirkdorffer, Daniel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Date: Tuesday, November 09, 1999 12:21 PM
> > Subject: Re: JSP vs Servlets?
> >
> >
> > >Since Mr. Wells appears hell bent on telling us all that webmacro "was
> > >recently selected as one of the best three servlet
> > >products of 1999 by the Java report" here is the actual category it was
> > >selected in:
> > >
> > >Servlet Tools, Components, & Frameworks
> > >
> > >Java Report also had the following categories:
> > >
> > >Application Servers
> > >Compilers & VMs
> > >Database Middleware
> > >Database Tools
> > >GUI Components
> > >IDEs
> > >Testing Tools
> > >Third-Party Components
> > >Utilities
> > >Web Authoring & Management Tools
> > >
> > >Note: no category for best specification, go figure.
> > >
> > >In the Servlet Tools, Components, & Frameworks category the winners were
> > >(Jason Hunter please take a bow...):
> > >
> > >COM.OREILLY.SERVLET PACKAGE:
> > >JASON HUNTER
> > >
> > >SERVLETEXEC:
> > >NEW ATLANTA COMMUNICATIONS
> > >
> > >WEBMACRO SERVLET FRAMEWORK:
> > >SEMIOTEK INC.
> > >
> > >Hurl your url to http://www.javareport.com/html/products/wr_choice.shtml
> > for
> > >the complete list of winners.
> > >
> > >That's about as much advertising of webmacro that I think the readers of
> > >either of these lists are interested in.
> > >
> > >Dan
> > >
> > >
> > >> ----------
> > >> From: Justin Wells[SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > >> Reply To: A mailing list for discussion about Sun Microsystem's
> > Java
> > >> Servlet API Technology.
> > >> Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 1999 11:41 AM
> > >> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > >> Subject: Re: JSP vs Servlets?
> > >>
> > >> Quoting Jay Macarty ([EMAIL PROTECTED]):
> > >> > Frank,
> > >> > JSP is useful in a number of situations as summarized below:
> > >> >
> > >> > 1. JSP "hides" much of the nuts-and-bolts of the servlet code. When
> > used
> > >> in
> > >> > combination with Java beans, a developer without a detailed
> > background
> > >> in
> > >> > servlets, say a person normally responsible for HTML page layout, can
> > >> still
> > >> > construct a powerful and useful web application.
> > >>
> > >> This is not an advantage of JSP over servlets, assuming that the
> > servlet
> > >> writer chooses to use one of the template systems available.
> > >>
> > >> In fact, it's a disadvantage because with a good template system the
> > >> servlet writer can do an even better job of the separation.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> > 2. JSP helps separate presentation from program logic. Even though
> > the
> > >> final
> > >> > code generated by the JSP procedure builds the needed code to write
> > out
> > >> the
> > >> > HTML, it is much easier to simply update the HTML in the JSP file and
> > >> > arrange things how ever you want and let the processor handle the
> > >> details.
> > >> > This even opens the door to allowing a page layout designer do the
> > HTML
> > >> > while a Java programmer codes the logic.
> > >>
> > >> JSP does a very poor job of this, since by design it encourages you to
> > >> freely mix Java and HTML in the .jsp file.
> > >>
> > >> A good template system does a much better job of effecting this
> > >> separation.
> > >> In fact, JSP only really provides you with support for a model versus
> > >> view+controller separation--it takes a template system to realize the
> > >> full value of the model/view/controller design.
> > >>
> > >> The model is your collection of Java beans, coming out of your EJB
> > server,
> > >> or your database, or whatever. Your servlet is the controller,
> > implemented
> > >> in 100% pure Java, and takes responsibility over controlling the
> > session
> > >> (loading objects, authenticating the user, selecting the result data,
> > >> deciding on what view to return). Obviously the templates become the
> > >> view portion of the design.
> > >>
> > >> With JSP it's easy to use beans plus JSP gunk, but harder to effect
> > >> the full three way separation (harder in the sense that there is
> > >> absolutely no architectural support for doing so. You have to
> > >> remember to maintain the separation yourself, at every single point.)
> > >>
> > >> > 3. As mentioned briefly above, JSP's ability to take advantage of
> > Java
> > >> beans
> > >> > can be a very useful tool in building applications.
> > >>
> > >> WebMacro can do this as well--it uses introspection much the same way
> > >> that JSP does, only in a template model. Other template systems, such
> > >> as FreeMarker, can come close, though you have to write adapters.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> > 4. Because of JSP's tendency to look like Microsoft Active Server
> > Pages,
> > >> > ASP, in many respects, it is sometimes easier for a developer making
> > the
> > >> > transition from ASP to servlets to start out with JSP.
> > >>
> > >> This is an advantage of JSP. Though not one I'd be proud of.
> > >>
> > >> > I would not say that a developer should choose either JSP or servlet
> > >> > development exclusively but I think JSP certainly has its place and I
> > am
> > >> in
> > >> > the process of converting some of my pages to JSP which seem to be a
> > >> better
> > >> > fit (i.e. an application log-in page).
> > >>
> > >> I think JSP is suitable for quickly hacked together applications where
> > >> design is not an issue. I tend to use perl in such situations, though,
> > >> since it's more rapid development than Java.
> > >>
> > >> When I move to Java, it's because there are bigger issues, and then
> > >> design becomes important. So I stick to servlets with templates.
> > >>
> > >> Of course, as the creator of WebMacro I'm entirely biased. Although I
> > >> created WebMacro because of the bias, not the other way around.
> > >>
> > >> WebMacro is a free template system which you can download and use at
> > >> no charge. It was recently selected as one of the best three servlet
> > >> products of 1999 by the Java report.
> > >>
> > >> http:/webmacro.org
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Justin
> > >>
> > >>
> > __________________________________________________________________________
> > >> _
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> > >> body
> > >> of the message "signoff SERVLET-INTEREST".
> > >>
> > >> Archives: http://archives.java.sun.com/archives/servlet-interest.html
> > >> Resources: http://java.sun.com/products/servlet/external-resources.html
> > >> LISTSERV Help: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/user/user.html
> > >>
> > >
> > >=========================================================================
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> > >FAQs on JSP can be found at:
> > > http://java.sun.com/products/jsp/faq.html
> > > http://www.esperanto.org.nz/jsp/jspfaq.html
> >
> >
> >
>
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