Hi all, We work on a somewhat reversed model than the suggested ideal. In our shop programmers create basic JSP html framework alongside the development of the backend functionality, and then we hand it over to the Graphics to make beautiful. This seems to work fairly well and our graphic designers are fairly adept at avoiding stuffing up the dynamic code. This also means they are incrementally being educated in the syntax of the JSP/javascript stuff and can increasingly take more of a role at earlier stages. I believe this is also true for the coders as they absorb greater design awareness from the graphics along the way.
The downside of this is that UI issues of usability are not necessarily best handled by programmers (or our ones at least ;=) ) and some fairly clunky usability can find its way through to the graphics. In our ideal world we'd work with a UI designer first to map out the functionality, then create the JSP/HTML/bean/servlet skeleton and hand it back to the designers to polish. Whilst this works for us, I'm afraid I havn't got any cost analysis worth sharing as to whether it's any better than any other system. cheers > -----Original Message----- > From: Haseltine, Celeste [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Wednesday,29 May 2002 3:01 > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Re: Separation of HTML and Java work in a JSP > > Carlos, > > I don't know of anyone who actually works this way in the real world. In > fact, we hired a jr individual who had no actual programming background, > including JavaScript, but did know HTML and could really create neat > graphics using Adobe Photoshop, FlashMX, etc. Trying to teach him how to > write JSP's and some JavaScript, using only JSP tag libraries and HTML > for > the JSP's, has been more effort than it's really worth. Although he tries > very hard, he has no background or experience by which to be able to > "debug" > his JSP's or JavaScript. And trying to get him to understand basic logic > such as for loops, for each, do until, if then else, switch/case, etc, has > been difficult. He is GREAT HTML and graphics artist. But he does not > have > the mindset to "visualize" how to "code" his JPS's to produce the "final" > HTML. > > I think this theory of using HTML/graphic artist types to create JSP's, > and > using only your higher paid developers to create the backend using > servlets/Java Beans, etc, has come from both University/professor types > who > have NO real world experience, and MBA/management types than those who are > more technical (with some business background) like us. In theory it > sounds > great, and to a high level manager with no actual technical > background/experience, it's the type of organizational structure that they > would eat up hook, line, and sinker, particularly since they can hire > HTML/graphic artist types at about 1/3 of what a mid level developer > costs. > After going through it here with a total of 5 people on this project, I > would never recommend this type of setup in the real world. Especially if > your a large development shop. > > Your suggestion of using JR developers to create the JSP's is more in line > with my experience in the real world. As they gain experience and > knowledge > of the product and the corporate culture, some of them will want to move > into the backend development, while others may want to specialize in > creating only custom tag libraries or deployment/upkeep of websites. And > for the most part, they have the background and the "mindset" to visualize > what they need to do and how to accomplish that in a JSP page. > > Just my two cents worth. If anyone out there is really implementing this > "model" of using non-programmers to create JSP pages in their development > shops, I would be interested in knowing how well this has worked for you, > if > you have any hard "cost savings" data that you can share, and whether you > would continue to use this model on future development projects. > > Celeste > > -----Original Message----- > From: Carlos Vicente [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Tuesday, May 28, 2002 11:36 AM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Re: Separation of HTML and Java work in a JSP > > > Uhhhm. > Really anybody works this way? > > In any Enterprise, the web designers are the responsible of create the > jsp�s > with tools such dreamweaver? I hear a lot such situation but i don�t know > anybody that work this way. > > I think that usually are programmers (web programers but > programmers(usually > the juniors)) wich take the HTML(only html) generated by the designers and > insert all the jsp and java stuff. Really JSP is a java class and is very > dangerous that people that don�t understand java programming touch a JSP(a > designer can understand a compilation error from the tomcat, Jrun, etc?). > > If your project is very large is usual that certain programmers, work with > the logic stuff(beans, servlets, taglibs, ejb�s.....) and other > programmers > (web programmers) work with jsp or another template engines (velocity, > xsl....). > > But if anybody works this way, I�m happy to hear their impressions. > > > > > -----Mensaje original----- > De: A mailing list about Java Server Pages specification and reference > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]En nombre de Greg Dunn > Enviado el: martes, 28 de mayo de 2002 18:10 > Para: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Asunto: Re: Separation of HTML and Java work in a JSP > > > In a perfect world, no Java code would go in the JSP itself, it would all > be > in servlets, custom tags or beans. Then the designer only needs to know > how > to insert code for a tag or bean and what information the tags or bean > will > return; and which servlet to use as a form action or whatever. Designers > can also use something like Dreamweaver to help with tag libraries. > > Greg > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: A mailing list about Java Server Pages specification and reference > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Luis Javier Beltr�n > Sent: Tuesday, May 28, 2002 11:01 AM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Separation of HTML and Java work in a JSP > > > Hi everybody, > > I'm a bit confused about the way JSPs should be programmed. Which is the > correct way to separate HTML design from Java logic? should a person be > responsible for the HTML and another person should take this result and > program the logic? but the presentation changes depending on the > parameters > passed, so all these posibilities should be programmed by the designer? > I think the most practical way is that a person should know about design > and > Java. Is this right? > > Thanks a lot! > > Luis Javier > > ========================================================================== > = > To unsubscribe: mailto [EMAIL PROTECTED] with body: "signoff > JSP-INTEREST". > For digest: mailto [EMAIL PROTECTED] with body: "set JSP-INTEREST > DIGEST". > Some relevant FAQs on JSP/Servlets can be found at: > > http://archives.java.sun.com/jsp-interest.html > http://java.sun.com/products/jsp/faq.html > http://www.esperanto.org.nz/jsp/jspfaq.jsp > http://www.jguru.com/faq/index.jsp > http://www.jspinsider.com > > ========================================================================== > = > To unsubscribe: mailto [EMAIL PROTECTED] with body: "signoff > JSP-INTEREST". > For digest: mailto [EMAIL PROTECTED] with body: "set JSP-INTEREST > DIGEST". > Some relevant FAQs on JSP/Servlets can be found at: > > http://archives.java.sun.com/jsp-interest.html > http://java.sun.com/products/jsp/faq.html > http://www.esperanto.org.nz/jsp/jspfaq.jsp > http://www.jguru.com/faq/index.jsp > http://www.jspinsider.com > > ========================================================================== > = > To unsubscribe: mailto [EMAIL PROTECTED] with body: "signoff > JSP-INTEREST". > For digest: mailto [EMAIL PROTECTED] with body: "set JSP-INTEREST > DIGEST". > Some relevant FAQs on JSP/Servlets can be found at: > > http://archives.java.sun.com/jsp-interest.html > http://java.sun.com/products/jsp/faq.html > http://www.esperanto.org.nz/jsp/jspfaq.jsp > http://www.jguru.com/faq/index.jsp > http://www.jspinsider.com > > ========================================================================== > To unsubscribe: mailto [EMAIL PROTECTED] with body: "signoff > JSP-INTEREST". > For digest: mailto [EMAIL PROTECTED] with body: "set JSP-INTEREST > DIGEST". > Some relevant FAQs on JSP/Servlets can be found at: > > http://archives.java.sun.com/jsp-interest.html > http://java.sun.com/products/jsp/faq.html > http://www.esperanto.org.nz/jsp/jspfaq.jsp > http://www.jguru.com/faq/index.jsp > http://www.jspinsider.com =========================================================================== To unsubscribe: mailto [EMAIL PROTECTED] with body: "signoff JSP-INTEREST". For digest: mailto [EMAIL PROTECTED] with body: "set JSP-INTEREST DIGEST". Some relevant FAQs on JSP/Servlets can be found at: http://archives.java.sun.com/jsp-interest.html http://java.sun.com/products/jsp/faq.html http://www.esperanto.org.nz/jsp/jspfaq.jsp http://www.jguru.com/faq/index.jsp http://www.jspinsider.com
