Hi, I ran a largish (40 odd people) web development company for a while, and our approach was to get the graphic designers to just deleiver us photoshop files - These would then be cut and coded up into JSP by the programmers themselves - even HTML when pushed is beyond a designer when you go into divs / layers / iframes and javascript. In fact even using fancy nested tabling to center stuff turned out to be beyond them. These were designers that had been in the industry for a good few years and we won quite a few awards based on thier designs.
So actually it might be even worse than you think. From my perspective a designer is always added to a project as an additional expense - there is no opertunity to remove other participants from the team, In fact if you add a designer into a team, you might also need to add a liason person too, there is a notorious comms issue between ponytails and propeller heads. oh well. > -----Original Message----- > From: techhead4life [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: 28 May 2002 07:13 > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Re: Separation of HTML and Java work in a JSP > > I a well funded company. > > Designer = responsible for design, graphics, flash content > Sitebuilder = responsible for making sure design does not break html/xslt > code template design based on design > Programmer = create logic or functions and responsible for function > integration > Database Admin = responsible with the uml design of db object realted to > the > programming and maintenence of database data and servers > Project Manager = responsibile for the project > Team Lead = responsible for the programmers > Architect = responsible for the design of the overall system. > > I a company with tight budgets. > > Designer = responsible for design, graphics, flash content, responsible > for > making sure design does not break html/xslt code template design based on > design > Programmer = responsible for the design of the overall system, create > logic > or functions and responsible for function integration, responsible with > the > uml design of db object realted to the programming and maintenence of > database data and servers > Project Manager = responsibile for the project > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Haseltine, Celeste" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Tuesday, May 28, 2002 1:01 PM > Subject: Re: Separation of HTML and Java work in a JSP > > > Carlos, > > I don't know of anyone who actually works this way in the real world. In > fact, we hired a jr individual who had no actual programming background, > including JavaScript, but did know HTML and could really create neat > graphics using Adobe Photoshop, FlashMX, etc. Trying to teach him how to > write JSP's and some JavaScript, using only JSP tag libraries and HTML > for > the JSP's, has been more effort than it's really worth. Although he tries > very hard, he has no background or experience by which to be able to > "debug" > his JSP's or JavaScript. And trying to get him to understand basic logic > such as for loops, for each, do until, if then else, switch/case, etc, has > been difficult. He is GREAT HTML and graphics artist. But he does not > have > the mindset to "visualize" how to "code" his JPS's to produce the "final" > HTML. > > I think this theory of using HTML/graphic artist types to create JSP's, > and > using only your higher paid developers to create the backend using > servlets/Java Beans, etc, has come from both University/professor types > who > have NO real world experience, and MBA/management types than those who are > more technical (with some business background) like us. In theory it > sounds > great, and to a high level manager with no actual technical > background/experience, it's the type of organizational structure that they > would eat up hook, line, and sinker, particularly since they can hire > HTML/graphic artist types at about 1/3 of what a mid level developer > costs. > After going through it here with a total of 5 people on this project, I > would never recommend this type of setup in the real world. Especially if > your a large development shop. > > Your suggestion of using JR developers to create the JSP's is more in line > with my experience in the real world. As they gain experience and > knowledge > of the product and the corporate culture, some of them will want to move > into the backend development, while others may want to specialize in > creating only custom tag libraries or deployment/upkeep of websites. And > for the most part, they have the background and the "mindset" to visualize > what they need to do and how to accomplish that in a JSP page. > > Just my two cents worth. If anyone out there is really implementing this > "model" of using non-programmers to create JSP pages in their development > shops, I would be interested in knowing how well this has worked for you, > if > you have any hard "cost savings" data that you can share, and whether you > would continue to use this model on future development projects. > > Celeste > > -----Original Message----- > From: Carlos Vicente [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Tuesday, May 28, 2002 11:36 AM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Re: Separation of HTML and Java work in a JSP > > > Uhhhm. > Really anybody works this way? > > In any Enterprise, the web designers are the responsible of create the > jsp�s > with tools such dreamweaver? I hear a lot such situation but i don�t know > anybody that work this way. > > I think that usually are programmers (web programers but > programmers(usually > the juniors)) wich take the HTML(only html) generated by the designers and > insert all the jsp and java stuff. Really JSP is a java class and is very > dangerous that people that don�t understand java programming touch a JSP(a > designer can understand a compilation error from the tomcat, Jrun, etc?). > > If your project is very large is usual that certain programmers, work with > the logic stuff(beans, servlets, taglibs, ejb�s.....) and other > programmers > (web programmers) work with jsp or another template engines (velocity, > xsl....). > > But if anybody works this way, I�m happy to hear their impressions. > > > > > -----Mensaje original----- > De: A mailing list about Java Server Pages specification and reference > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]En nombre de Greg Dunn > Enviado el: martes, 28 de mayo de 2002 18:10 > Para: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Asunto: Re: Separation of HTML and Java work in a JSP > > > In a perfect world, no Java code would go in the JSP itself, it would all > be > in servlets, custom tags or beans. Then the designer only needs to know > how > to insert code for a tag or bean and what information the tags or bean > will > return; and which servlet to use as a form action or whatever. Designers > can also use something like Dreamweaver to help with tag libraries. > > Greg > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: A mailing list about Java Server Pages specification and reference > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Luis Javier Beltr�n > Sent: Tuesday, May 28, 2002 11:01 AM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Separation of HTML and Java work in a JSP > > > Hi everybody, > > I'm a bit confused about the way JSPs should be programmed. Which is the > correct way to separate HTML design from Java logic? should a person be > responsible for the HTML and another person should take this result and > program the logic? but the presentation changes depending on the > parameters > passed, so all these posibilities should be programmed by the designer? > I think the most practical way is that a person should know about design > and > Java. Is this right? > > Thanks a lot! > > Luis Javier > > ========================================================================== > = > To unsubscribe: mailto [EMAIL PROTECTED] with body: "signoff > JSP-INTEREST". > For digest: mailto [EMAIL PROTECTED] with body: "set JSP-INTEREST > DIGEST". > Some relevant FAQs on JSP/Servlets can be found at: > > http://archives.java.sun.com/jsp-interest.html > http://java.sun.com/products/jsp/faq.html > http://www.esperanto.org.nz/jsp/jspfaq.jsp > http://www.jguru.com/faq/index.jsp > http://www.jspinsider.com > > ========================================================================== > = > To unsubscribe: mailto [EMAIL PROTECTED] with body: "signoff > JSP-INTEREST". > For digest: mailto [EMAIL PROTECTED] with body: "set JSP-INTEREST > DIGEST". > Some relevant FAQs on JSP/Servlets can be found at: > > http://archives.java.sun.com/jsp-interest.html > http://java.sun.com/products/jsp/faq.html > http://www.esperanto.org.nz/jsp/jspfaq.jsp > http://www.jguru.com/faq/index.jsp > http://www.jspinsider.com > > ========================================================================== > = > To unsubscribe: mailto [EMAIL PROTECTED] with body: "signoff > JSP-INTEREST". > For digest: mailto [EMAIL PROTECTED] with body: "set JSP-INTEREST > DIGEST". > Some relevant FAQs on JSP/Servlets can be found at: > > http://archives.java.sun.com/jsp-interest.html > http://java.sun.com/products/jsp/faq.html > http://www.esperanto.org.nz/jsp/jspfaq.jsp > http://www.jguru.com/faq/index.jsp > http://www.jspinsider.com > > ========================= > To unsubscribe: mailto [EMAIL PROTECTED] with body: "signoff > JSP-INTEREST". > For digest: mailto [EMAIL PROTECTED] with body: "set JSP-INTEREST > DIGEST". > Some relevant FAQs on JSP/Servlets can be found at: > > http://archives.java.sun.com/jsp-interest.html > http://java.sun.com/products/jsp/faq.html > http://www.esperanto.org.nz/jsp/jspfaq.jsp > http://www.jguru.com/faq/index.jsp > http://www.jspinsider.com > > ========================================================================== > = > To unsubscribe: mailto [EMAIL PROTECTED] with body: "signoff > JSP-INTEREST". > For digest: mailto [EMAIL PROTECTED] with body: "set JSP-INTEREST > DIGEST". > Some relevant FAQs on JSP/Servlets can be found at: > > http://archives.java.sun.com/jsp-interest.html > http://java.sun.com/products/jsp/faq.html > http://www.esperanto.org.nz/jsp/jspfaq.jsp > http://www.jguru.com/faq/index.jsp > http://www.jspinsider.com -- ********************************************************************** The Truworths e-mail facility may not be used for the distribution of chain letters or offensive email. 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