Larry, I'm sorry if I offended you. That was not my intention. I you, Paul, and I were having a healthy discussion.
I'm really trying to work together with the other programmers. That is why I posted the PDF for others to comment on to begin with. I'm certainly not suggesting that is what other plug-in programmers use, or even that we use PDF help docs in the core. I was just throwing out what I was using on my plug-in to see what other programmers thought. You often provide me with helpful suggestions and an insightful perspective on programming in general. I hope I have not soured that opportunity for future feedback from you with something I said. If this is the case, please let me know what I need to do to correct it. Thanks, Landon On 10/17/07, Larry Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > I'm open for suggestions. > > Obviously, you're not. In fact you're become a bit of a troll. > Personally, I'm not going to wast any more collective bandwidth on > this issue. The little bit of information in your PDF file would be > better served as a tooltip for each button. > > Larry > > On 10/17/07, Sunburned Surveyor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Paul, > > > > Your points are well taken. > > > > I took a pretty close look at JavaHelp. If you are a fan of HTML help > > it is the way to go. I decided against using Java help because I > > wanted a way to cleanly separate text from images. If I was to use a > > help documentation system that didn't use PDF, I would create a simple > > GUI that could display simple text and images in a logically separated > > way. > > > > I suppose you could use HTML if you didn't care about layout for > > printing, and you could put all images in separate HTML pages... > > > > I might be open to that idea. In this case I would be open to using > > Java Help. The only thing I don't like about this approach is that > > HTML really stinks for printing. So if we wanted good "printable" use > > documentation we would end up using a word processor or program like > > Scribus anyways. > > > > An alternative would be something that could produce HTML and PDF from > > plain text. I think DocBook does this, but every time I think about > > using it I shy away because of the learning curve. > > > > I'd like us to continue this dicussion. If we can figure out a > > compromise that works for most of us I'll scrap the PDF help idea. > > > > So, does anyone have a FOSS solution that we could use to > > automatically produce PDF and HTML PDF documentation from the same > > plain text source? > > > > We could throw the HTML into JavaHelp and make the PDF available for > > download to those that want a copy of the docs they can print. > > > > I'm open for suggestions. > > > > The Sunburned Surveyor > > > > On 10/17/07, Paul Austin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > Landon, > > > > > > On the P.S.S. Documentation that is larger because of quality > > > descriptions and illustrations is a good think. Larger because of file > > > format size is not so good. > > > > > > Another thing is responsiveness, on my Linux box it takes forever to > > > launch a PDF viewer, an embedded swing HTML viewer however is really > > > fast. The other thing we should look at is the Java Help system to see > > > if it meets out needs without inventing things ourselves. > > > > > > Paul > > > > > > > > > Sunburned Surveyor wrote: > > > > Paul brings up a good point. > > > > > > > > The only thing I don't like about HTML is that your options for > > > > controlling layout are limited. I think it also presents some > > > > challeneges in the separation of text and images, which I think is > > > > important for translation. Printing HTML docs can be tricky too. > > > > > > > > I've done work on a simple help viewer. It basically does what Larry > > > > talks about, but also includes support for images. I could use it > > > > instead. But that would take a week or two of work...I'll have to chew > > > > on it. > > > > > > > > You could probably look at the issue this way: > > > > > > > > Disadvantages of PDF help documentation: > > > > - Size of files. > > > > - External Viewer Needed > > > > > > > > Advantages of PDF help documentation: > > > > - Exact control over document layout. > > > > - Easy hard copy printing. > > > > - Access to documentation from outside the application. > > > > - Common document format. > > > > > > > > I think for something like a Plug-In I would include the PDF files in > > > > the download. For something like a user or developer manual I would > > > > package the PDF as a separate download. > > > > > > > > I guess I'm just a fan of PDF. :] It must be the graphic artist in me. > > > > Still, this discussion is good, as I hadn't considered the size issue. > > > > > > > > If someone is willing to develop an alternative help system that will > > > > be supported in OpenJUMP, I will strive to make my plug-in help docs > > > > conform. > > > > > > > > Thanks. > > > > > > > > The Sunburned Surveyor > > > > > > > > P.S. - Larry: On my Linux system the PDF viewer is FOSS. > > > > P.S.S. - Paul: In my perspective PDF documentation that is larger than > > > > the actual code is a sign of a well documented program, which most > > > > FOSS is not. I think there are several popular FOSS programs where the > > > > help docs are larger than the code base. > > > > > > > > > > > > On 10/17/07, Paul Austin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > > >> And if you need to have some pretty formatting or images use HTML. > > > >> > > > >> On another perspective on the issue. HTML is a fairly low overhead way > > > >> to encode text. PDF files on the other hand have a lot of overhead. > > > >> > > > >> If we look at this one page PDF it takes up 164KB where as a HTML > > > >> document with image would probably be 5kb. > > > >> > > > >> If we have 1000 functions in OpenJUMP with 1 page of help the PDF files > > > >> would be around a 164MB download as opposed to about 2MB with HTML (my > > > >> math is correct the image 3KB is shared across all the pages in the > > > >> HTML > > > >> with only 2KB of text that differs). > > > >> > > > >> Just another way to think about it. Your help files should not be > > > >> bigger > > > >> in size than the code! > > > >> > > > >> Paul > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> Larry Becker wrote: > > > >> > > > >>> PDF is just a non-standard way to do help. All you have is some > > > >>> text. You should just pop up a window with a text component and > > > >>> display it. Don't make me open another (non-free) application to view > > > >>> your help. > > > >>> > > > >>> Larry > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > >> This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. > > > >> Still grepping through log files to find problems? Stop. > > > >> Now Search log events and configuration files using AJAX and a browser. > > > >> Download your FREE copy of Splunk now >> http://get.splunk.com/ > > > >> _______________________________________________ > > > >> Jump-pilot-devel mailing list > > > >> Jump-pilot-devel@lists.sourceforge.net > > > >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jump-pilot-devel > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. > > > > Still grepping through log files to find problems? Stop. > > > > Now Search log events and configuration files using AJAX and a browser. > > > > Download your FREE copy of Splunk now >> http://get.splunk.com/ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Jump-pilot-devel mailing list > > > > Jump-pilot-devel@lists.sourceforge.net > > > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jump-pilot-devel > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. > > > Still grepping through log files to find problems? Stop. > > > Now Search log events and configuration files using AJAX and a browser. > > > Download your FREE copy of Splunk now >> http://get.splunk.com/ > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Jump-pilot-devel mailing list > > > Jump-pilot-devel@lists.sourceforge.net > > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jump-pilot-devel > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. > > Still grepping through log files to find problems? 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Stop. > Now Search log events and configuration files using AJAX and a browser. > Download your FREE copy of Splunk now >> http://get.splunk.com/ > _______________________________________________ > Jump-pilot-devel mailing list > Jump-pilot-devel@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jump-pilot-devel > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Still grepping through log files to find problems? Stop. Now Search log events and configuration files using AJAX and a browser. Download your FREE copy of Splunk now >> http://get.splunk.com/ _______________________________________________ Jump-pilot-devel mailing list Jump-pilot-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jump-pilot-devel
