https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=404286
--- Comment #28 from Michał Dybczak <michal.dybc...@gmail.com> --- (In reply to NSLW from comment #24) > Created attachment 124526 [details] > Tłumaczenie plasma-vault.mbox > > > I'm disappointed that's your motivation. I would like you to come here to > work on translation rather than to fight because I think it would be less > aggressive and more productive. Why? One of the most common motivators for people is when we see something we don't like, instead being passive and whiny, we take action to improve things. Nothing shameful in that, in fact, this should be admirable, because most people will only complain and won't even try to do anything. The need to improve even one thing is how things start and it may evolve in something more but it has to start somewhere. > > First, there are maybe 1-2 persons working on translation for years. > > I think there is a fallacy here. > During my translation period (8 years) maybe two/three users submitted > files to me in order to commit them into official repository. Those were > small but nevertheless valuable contributions. > > There is also Jaroslaw Staniek which activated himself after I've fully > translated mostly untranslated Kexi. He made some corrections in Kexi > according to his knowledge. > > There is also Luigi Toscano, who sometimes merges some new translations from > Transifex, Launchpad etc. > > By you saying that there are 2 peoples working, I feel like treated unfair > because I don't see any other translator doing work and I know who lifts the > translations. Thank you for clarifying it. I was just being general because I don't have all the facts and that is why I used the word MAYBE. I'm also an outside person without means to know all such details but from what I can remember, very few people were currently working on translators and very few were major contributors - that is what I got from the discussion. Again, note I wasn't giving any absolute statements showing that I accept I might be off with this info. You are just nitpicking on the details hich is a bad attitude that is super common among polish internet communities (of any kind). I guess this is some flaw in our culture. It's very hard to discuss something seriously when someone is constantly nitpicking and splitting hairs in two and it's a form of an attack, which is not a way to discuss things constructively. > > > Because of the antiquated system, it's hard start and help with translation. > > AFAIK you didn't try to contribute, so to me your opinion is not backed by > real life experience. > In the beginning I were submitting all my translations to Marta Rybczyńska > and it was working OK. > The problem started only as I were submitting more and more. You seemed to miss the point. The system is so antiquated that it's not comprehensible by modern standards and that simply creates a huge barrier which I bounced off of it. I wanted to contribute because it feels fair to try when I already voiced my opinion. I didn't even have chance to do that because there was no one to help me with that, although I clearly asked for it. Yes, this is so confusing that if you want fresh blood, you must guide them like children. I expected some site, account with certain rights and access to the files that I can work on plus some modern way of communication on the project. So I had a genuine desire to help or at least try to, yet I'm bashed that my motivation is disappointing and that I didn't contribute anything. This is absurd and a vicious, and unfair circle. > > > > Secondly, because those persons do all the work, they hold also the right to > > make the decisions and the voice of others carry no weight. > > Would you like to hold the right to make all the decisions but do no work > and take no responsibility for it? I disagree with that point of view. > You wrote, that voice of others carry no weight. I presume it's also about > your voice not being taken into consideration. > Please recall following post: > https://sourceforge.net/p/kdei18n-pl/mailman/kdei18n-pl-devel/thread/ > 4e833f16-e596-68a3-f6b3-24e04bc95ba7%40gmail.com/#msg36094656 > On 2017-11-10 you send e-mail with the same issue directly to me (see > attachment to this bug). > It was about me translating the word "vault" as "krypta". You wanted to see > "sejf" instead. I've accepted your suggestion without any argument. > Is that not the weight that you had on your mind? Well, I agree that I stated it too strongly. However, from my perspective it looked like this: - I submitted the bug about the translation of "the vault" and had zero response - after a while I did see the corrected translation, I was happy, but I had no way of knowing if me taking action was the trigger or maybe the translator (you) realized the mistake on your own, or maybe someone submitted that problem on other, more proper channels - so in the end I didn't feel like my voice was heard, even if translation was indeed fixed When I raised my voice about the Anuluj vs. Zaniechaj, I felt ignored again. This is probably a fault of the antiquated system. We don't know how to communicate with each other (developers with users) so it creates unpleasant situation on both sides: you feel as if your work was not apprciated, we feel that our feedback is not appreciated or even heard either. I'm happy to hear that my submission helped thou. Thank you for letting me know. > > > I tried to argument the best I could but to no avail, since I'm, an outsider > > and have no experience and knowledge, I can't win this. There is no > > democracy in that area. > > Do you mean this post? > https://sourceforge.net/p/kdei18n-pl/mailman/message/36775781/ > That's the only place I saw you taking voice. I read it, answered it, and > saw no arguments valuable to me. > I see that you took side, want fight and win with your side. I absolutely don't understand you now. If I was agreeing with you, there would be no discussion or any reason to communicate in that case. Why fighting for the argument is a bad thing? You do it, so why can't I? Fighting for something doesn't mean that we can't estabilish any consensus or understanding. However, in our previous discussion you twisted my words and found some meaning that wasn't there. Where I tried to show you how we feel about it and why it is important to us I was too emotional. When I was trying to admit how good job you done and that you maybe have no enough contributors, you commenedt I was ungrateful and aggitative... Can you imagine how frustrating it is when you compliment someone, try to reach a hand and the other person just bashes you? This is why I didn't feel like there is point of talking further back then and that is why it stuck there. You looked for the bad intentions where there were none. This was super unwelcoming so I dropped off. Or maybe write some replay and got no answer? Somehow I don't see anything more on the link you posted. I don't clearly remeber, it was too long ago, but it felt like bashing agaist a wall (we didn't get along, you misunderstood me, ignored my arguments and I still didn't know where to start with the translation) so I lost interest. > > > > There were even someone from the KDE dev team that ordered them to reverse > > the translation, and they refused it. So he made clear that this wasn't a > > request and that they have no choice... They refused... because in reality, > > because of that obsolete system, no one can force anything. > > I don't community like the ones who give orders and the ones who receive > orders. > I believe community is a bunch of people who do something voluntarily. > Do you see it differently? First, with so huge project there has to be a hierachy, otherwise there is simply chaos. No bigger thing can arise from that. Secondly, if you voulenteer, you are doing things not for yourself, otherwise why publishing your work? So everything you do is affecting users. I know that users aren't automatically right, it's not that simple but forcing some changes for you only against community and then being angry that community is even complaining is not right. Third, a community member has a right to give a feedback, because this is often the only way we can help. If we feel misunderstood or ignored, then yeah, things may become too emotional, but there is a reason why this is that way. If we could discuss on the same level with you it may have been different but we can't, we don't have the knowldge and experience but we can try to show you how important it is for us. > > Yes, this is a social problem but git system would allow more people be > > involved and that would create a healthier atmosphere. > > That's your opinion. I think everyone would like have something to say and > it's rarely that everyone would agree with each other. > That would create more discussions instead of work. Based on how many people > contributed to the translations and how many people contributed to the > discussion I presume that some people would like to put his 5 cents into > discussion rather than work. There are thinhgs that indeed should be decided without discussion, but some things need to be discussed. Both extremes are bad where either we talk but not work or work but no communication appears, then work deralis from its course. You are helping us so our feedback should be of value. The case of Anuluj vs. Zaniechaj is such a case where community shouldn't be disregarded and the decision shouldn't be just yours. > > > Even if we were on git system, someone would have to read and review pull > > requests, but maybe there would be someone who would be somehow responsible > > to other KDE devs and abide the hierarchy. > > Recently a user wrote to me about untranslated menu in KDE. It wasn't KDE > but Qt thing, so I made a submission here > https://codereview.qt-project.org/c/qt/qttranslations/+/284474 > Two reviewers has been added. Not translators but Polish speaking employees > of Qt. > It's around 60 short translation units which wait for a review since > 2019-12-12 (four days now). > > The amount of paperwork needed to: > 1) create an account there (not a simple task) > 2) send a commit > 3) get acceptance > is in my opinion unproportionate to the work that needed to be done. > The result is untranslated strings and no vibrant community of translators > around Qt. > It's not only in Polish but in Spanish as well and Spanish is well > translated language in KDE and has many more native speakers. > > I remember times when all translations went through Marta Rybczyńska. It was > less harsh than Qt but still not optimal. I made translations during a > weekend and she revised it three weeks afterwards. I believe it wasn't > convenient for her the same way as it wasn't for me. > > I'm not in favour of making more paperwork. It will slow down progress and > would eat scarce time resources that could be used for value adding > translations. Thank you for your insights, this is interesting to know but I'm not sure what are you trying to tell here. Are you comparing git system to overblown burocracy? Git could be relatively simple, like Github. Despite it being purchased by MS, it's still the most friendly git platform IMO. If git system is made right, it's easier to start. Maybe the current system is simpler somehow but I still don't know where the files are hosted, how you work on the translations, so it's all like behind the wall completely inaccessible for newcommers. This is getting off topic and I admit, I don't know enough so I can't tell for sure that git system would make it all better. Maybe it really wouldn't but again, this is not the focus of this case so let's drop it. > > > > Anyway, this is super frustrating situation and it hurts KDE development. > > From one side, those few persons ensure that KDE is properly translated > > which is great, on other hand, they just don't listen to anyone, because > > they know they have all the power based on the work they put in. In a way > > they are also right. > > The fact that I don't do as anyone would like doesn't mean that I don't > listen to anyone or to you particularly. I would like you to do less > emotional statements and more statements which are based on facts because I > would like this discussion to be productive. Please try to read and listen > as well because there are some basic fact you're still missing like the one > that there is single person who translates into Polish here. I don't thing you are listening to me either. So maybe I'll stop here with the discussion and go to the point of this bug submission: 1. You wrote somehwere that "zaniechaj" is perfectly understandable and that is good enough for you (I can't find the quote right now, the discussion got a bit too complex to follow). This was not the case for me. When I first saw "Zaniechaj" I was starring at it and was confused. What is it? What does it do? I didn't understand it. The years of seeing Cancel=Anuluj (almost 24 years!!!) engraved so strongly that seeing "Zaniechaj" in in this context was completely unclear. I was starring a good few minutes on the window, seeing 3 buttons and trying to decide which is the new Anuluj... Of course I figured it out eventually and it wasn't that hard but the first experience was super confusing and it took me some time to learn to click "zaniechaj" with certainty. For a long time I was stopping to try to asses where is this Anuluj button now? So no, this wasn't clear at all. It is now but I still don't like it from various of reasons. 2. You wrote: ""Zaniechaj" appeals to Polish language speaker. It's not a new technical term, it's also not an archaic word. In that sense it dejargonizes the language." Windows by being so long on the market and by being diminant system created a standard and I'm sure I'm not the only one accepting that standard. The confusion I wrote in previous point stem from the context and the years of consistant usage - this is how the new language standards are created. "Zaniechaj" is OK word anywhere else but for Cancel button on a desktop system? No, I've never seen that before so this word wasn't clear at all when I saw it used like that for the first time. 3. You wrote elswhere: "Preserving use of Polish language is extremely important reason for me." The problem here is, you are completely disregarding history and the context of that translation and usage of the world Anuluj. The language is a living thing and over the years it became a new standard and you are trying to force a translation outside of the context. There is no back in time at this point. It's as if you translated a books for surgons by dejargonizing the language. This would be an usuable crap. The same thing happened with Tolkien translation when someone tried forcefully use polish words for names and words everywhere possible. I bet you know the story and how people hated it. There is a very good reason to claim that Cancel is Anuluj in the desktop UI world. Preserving Polish language is a noble goal but with that one is already too late. The standard is already created. That is why we are discussing here. 4. "Zaniechaj" is too similar to "Zastosuj". UI design is not always consistent so the buttons look different, there is sometimes Cancel/OK pair and sometimes Cancel/Apply/OK, the buttons may have differnt position, look (Gtk, Qt, libre UI, etc.). We relay on automatisation and habits. Having clearly differnt words Anuluj/Zastosuj is a good practice whole Zaniechaj/Zastosuj is just a bad lingusitical design so to speak. 5. > I think you would like to abide to the standard of Windows. I would like to > abide to the standard of Polish language. I think it's nothing unusual > because MacOS didn't abide to Windows standard for a relatively long period > of time and we don't know why they've softened. But Windows did create standars for Polish language! Desktop PC systems weren't a thing before. Windows played a vital role and it created a new Polish standards for this specialization. MacOS didn't play and still doesn't play any bigger role in Poland. This may be changing when the society is becoming wealthier but this is a secondary phenomenon. Windows created a standard and change our language already. 6. The new translation of a term should be caused by a need and I don't think that community asked for it. The need to preserve the polish language is unfortunatelly not something that community would share. Usability is more important here and becaus of the standard plus the distinctivness, Anuluj is far better, if not the only correct translation here. 7. There are many things that are left for your decision where you can fulfill preserving Polish language goal. However, Cancel button is too important and there should be no freedom of translating it, not today. It's a very strict and clear part of the UI that is super important, so it's important to avoid any confusion and use widely accepeted standards. I hope this wasn't emotional for you this time and worthy of discussion. I'm trying to help you put yourself into our shoes. We are confused and unhappy with that translation. We are unhappy to a point to start a long and sometimes unpleasant discussion. Months have passed and we are still not forgetting and we are still not accepting the change. This should tell you something. Your work is important to us and that is why we are talking. Your voluntary service has a meaning because of us - users. It's already unpleasant for us to fight for rights to be heard. You have the power to change the code/translation but we are users of that code/translation so our opinion should have weight in that case, even if we didn't contribute to the translations over the past. In a way, we are trying to contribute to it right now the only way we can. Thank you -- You are receiving this mail because: You are watching all bug changes.
