And one more idea: “Default Field Names” would also be a reasonable thing to call these (so it’s clear that the /name/ is a default, not the /field/).
> On 29 May 2018, at 19:56, Jeff Young <[email protected]> wrote: > > Another way to fix the side-effect issue: > > 1) Go with the seed field model (we can name them "template fields”). > > 2) Don’t allow setting values for template fields. If you open the Symbol > Properties dialog the names will appear in the field list, but without > values. If you want to add a value then the field is now part of your > symbol. No “silent” adding. > > The internal struct name (TEMPLATE_FIELDNAME) suggests this might have been > the intention at some point. > > This walks a fine line on the string freeze. We need to change the dialog to > Template Fields, but as they were named that earlier the translation keys > might already be in the dictionaries. > >> On 29 May 2018, at 19:38, Jeff Young <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> We really must choose a model. What we have is broken under either model. >> >> If they’re “default” fields, then they need to be there by default. That’s >> what “default” means. I understand this isn’t the model you have in mind. >> >> The alternative is “seed” (or “template”) fields. In this model they must >> be added by the user. But that’s NOT what the code does (either before or >> after the recent change). If you edit a symbol they are *silently* added >> (as if they were default fields). If you understand the model to be seed >> fields, and all you did was change the symbol orientation, having the seed >> fields added will be VERY surprising. >> >> This is why I suggested earlier that if we want to treat them as seed fields >> then we need a button in the Symbol Properties dialog to add the fields. >> That way it’s clear to everyone what is happening. >> >>> On 29 May 2018, at 16:30, Wayne Stambaugh <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>> I figured out what is going on here. There are two distinct issues at play. >>> >>> It appears that all of the python BOM generation scripts[1] are adding >>> non-mandatory fields even if the fields do not exist in the the generic >>> (XML) netlist file. These should be fixed. I have no idea how much >>> work this will be but a quick scan would suggest that it wouldn't be too >>> difficult. I suspect these were provided as examples to create your own >>> scripts. Used as is, they will add extra empty field columns to the >>> BOM. BOMs generated with xsltproc do not exhibit this issue so the as >>> long as the default field does not have a value associated with it, the >>> generic netlist file does not contain any unexpected field information. >>> >>> However, if a default field contains a value then it is added to the >>> default netlist even if none of the symbols contain said field. This is >>> where I take exception. The generic netlist file should only contain >>> fields that are defined in the symbols. The assumption that the netlist >>> should contain default fields if the are not empty is broken. This will >>> lead to corrupted BOMs for existing projects which is not acceptable. >>> This change needs to be reverted. I know that it was done to fix a bug >>> report but this is not an acceptable solution for the bug. We can push >>> that bug fix off until the first v5 point release or v6 because it will >>> require a feature change to fix. >>> >>> [1]: https://git.launchpad.net/kicad/tree/eeschema/plugins/python_scripts >>> >>> On 5/29/2018 10:12 AM, Jeff Young wrote: >>>> Hi Reece, >>>> >>>> Was that generated with a recent build? Earlier versions of 5.0 >>>> certainly had that bug, but I’m pretty sure it’s been fixed. >>>> >>>> Cheers, >>>> Jeff. >>>> >>>> >>>>> On 29 May 2018, at 13:54, Reece R. Pollack <[email protected] >>>>> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> On 05/29/18 08:27, Jeff Young wrote: >>>>>> Comments inline: >>>>>> >>>>>>> On 28 May 2018, at 17:28, Reece R. Pollack <[email protected] >>>>>>> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I believe you owe me 2c. We can discuss 2c in which currency later. :-) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I have five custom default fields defined: >>>>>>> - Mfgr >>>>>>> - Mfgr P/N >>>>>>> - Dist >>>>>>> - Dist P/N >>>>>>> - Specifications >>>>>> >>>>>> None of these have any default values that make any sense, so I >>>>>> assume they’re all just names with empty values, right? >>>>> >>>>> Yes, all of these are empty by default, though I typically order from >>>>> DigiKey so I could have set that one. I added them as "Default Fields" >>>>> so that all components would have the same fields, and I wouldn't have >>>>> to depend on adding the field names by hand. >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The first two give the manufacturer's name and part number; the >>>>>>> second two give the distributor's name and part number; the third is >>>>>>> a catch-all for specs that are important for ordering but aren't >>>>>>> worth cluttering the schematic with. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> My biggest issue with the current Default Fields is that I didn't >>>>>>> start my current project with them, so using the field edit >>>>>>> spreadsheet-like thingie often results in lots of noise in my >>>>>>> commits as the empty default fields get added to components. >>>>>> >>>>>> If it’s adding empty default fields then it’s a bug. It should only >>>>>> add them if they have non-empty values. >>>>> >>>>> Then you have a bug. Here's a small excerpt from a Git diff where a >>>>> lot of components had empty fields added. None of these components >>>>> were added in this revision; I was simply setting part numbers for >>>>> /other/ components using the field editor spreadsheet thingie: >>>>> >>>>> diff --git a/Recreation/P170-DH/pcb/P170-DH >>>>> Replacement/ExternalInterface.sch b/Recreation/P170-DH/pcb/P170-DH >>>>> Replacement/ExternalInterface.sch >>>>> index 37482ee..e2aea43 100644 >>>>> --- a/Recreation/P170-DH/pcb/P170-DH Replacement/ExternalInterface.sch >>>>> +++ b/Recreation/P170-DH/pcb/P170-DH Replacement/ExternalInterface.sch >>>>> @@ -22,6 +22,11 @@ F 0 "U12" H 3900 2215 50 0000 C CNN >>>>> F 1 "74LVC1T45" H 3900 2124 50 0000 C CNN >>>>> F 2 "Package_TO_SOT_SMD:SOT-23-6" H 3900 1850 50 0001 C CNN >>>>> F 3 "http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/sn74lvc1t45.pdf"; H 3900 1850 >>>>> 50 0001 C CNN >>>>> +F 4 "" H 0 0 50 0001 C CNN "Distr" >>>>> +F 5 "" H 0 0 50 0001 C CNN "Distr P/N" >>>>> +F 6 "" H 0 0 50 0001 C CNN "Mfgr" >>>>> +F 7 "" H 0 0 50 0001 C CNN "Mfgr P/N" >>>>> +F 8 "" H 0 0 50 0001 C CNN "Specifications" >>>>> 1 3900 1850 >>>>> 1 0 0 -1 >>>>> $EndComp >>>>> @@ -33,6 +38,11 @@ F 0 "U13" H 3900 3415 50 0000 C CNN >>>>> F 1 "74LVC1T45" H 3900 3324 50 0000 C CNN >>>>> F 2 "Package_TO_SOT_SMD:SOT-23-6" H 3900 3050 50 0001 C CNN >>>>> F 3 "http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/sn74lvc1t45.pdf"; H 3900 3050 >>>>> 50 0001 C CNN >>>>> +F 4 "" H 0 0 50 0001 C CNN "Distr" >>>>> +F 5 "" H 0 0 50 0001 C CNN "Distr P/N" >>>>> +F 6 "" H 0 0 50 0001 C CNN "Mfgr" >>>>> +F 7 "" H 0 0 50 0001 C CNN "Mfgr P/N" >>>>> +F 8 "" H 0 0 50 0001 C CNN "Specifications" >>>>> 1 3900 3050 >>>>> 1 0 0 -1 >>>>> $EndComp >>>>> @@ -66,6 +86,11 @@ F 0 "J5" H 7719 1375 50 0000 C CNN >>>>> F 1 "Conn_01x06" H 7719 1466 50 0000 C CNN >>>>> F 2 "Connector_PinHeader_2.54mm:PinHeader_1x06_P2.54mm_Vertical" H >>>>> 7800 1900 50 0001 C CNN >>>>> F 3 "~" H 7800 1900 50 0001 C CNN >>>>> +F 4 "" H 0 0 50 0001 C CNN "Distr" >>>>> +F 5 "" H 0 0 50 0001 C CNN "Distr P/N" >>>>> +F 6 "" H 0 0 50 0001 C CNN "Mfgr" >>>>> +F 7 "" H 0 0 50 0001 C CNN "Mfgr P/N" >>>>> +F 8 "" H 0 0 50 0001 C CNN "Specifications" >>>>> 1 7800 1900 >>>>> 1 0 0 -1 >>>>> $EndComp >>>>> @@ -209,6 +234,7 @@ F 4 "CTS" H 3900 7100 50 0001 C CNN "Mfgr" >>>>> F 5 "218-4LPST" H 3900 7100 50 0001 C CNN "Mfgr P/N" >>>>> F 6 "DigiKey" H 3900 7100 50 0001 C CNN "Distr" >>>>> F 7 "CT2184LPST-ND" H 3900 7100 50 0001 C CNN "Distr P/N" >>>>> +F 8 "" H 0 0 50 0001 C CNN "Specifications" >>>>> 1 3900 7100 >>>>> 1 0 0 -1 >>>>> $EndComp >>>>> @@ -321,6 +347,11 @@ F 0 "R127" H 4509 5746 50 0000 L CNN >>>>> F 1 "100K" H 4509 5655 50 0000 L CNN >>>>> F 2 "Resistor_SMD:R_0603_1608Metric" H 4450 5700 50 0001 C CNN >>>>> F 3 "~" H 4450 5700 50 0001 C CNN >>>>> +F 4 "" H 0 0 50 0001 C CNN "Distr" >>>>> +F 5 "" H 0 0 50 0001 C CNN "Distr P/N" >>>>> +F 6 "" H 0 0 50 0001 C CNN "Mfgr" >>>>> +F 7 "" H 0 0 50 0001 C CNN "Mfgr P/N" >>>>> +F 8 "" H 0 0 50 0001 C CNN "Specifications" >>>>> 1 4450 5700 >>>>> 1 0 0 -1 >>>>> $EndComp >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>> Jeff. >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I was originally against adding such defined fields, as I expect it >>>>>>> will add fields to components that will potentially conflict with >>>>>>> those created by current users. However, if it doesn't do that, and >>>>>>> has the support from parts distributors, I guess I could live with it. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 05/22/18 10:56, Fabrizio Tappero wrote: >>>>>>>> Hello, >>>>>>>> I'd like to contribute with my 2c. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I completely agree with Kristoffer, there is a need for a "MPN" >>>>>>>> field hard coded exactly as "Value" field is hard coded in Kicad. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> As Wayne mentions the current "Preferences - General Options - >>>>>>>> Default Fields" is not a bad option to add a "MPN" field. This is >>>>>>>> what I do and this is what all my PCB colleges at work do. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Above solution will however not help the majority to do the same. I >>>>>>>> would actually bet 2c that nearly nobody uses the Default Fields >>>>>>>> feature (most of the people probably do it component by component). >>>>>>>> And this makes it a not so useful feature. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Kicost is a god-made tool and for sure Dave will soon add MPN as a >>>>>>>> default field in Kicad. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Cheers >>>>>>>> Fabrizio >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Tue, May 22, 2018 at 3:41 PM, kristoffer ödmark >>>>>>>> <[email protected] >>>>>>>> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> My updated patch forgot to add the files before doing the --amend. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> So it only updated the commit message. Here is the real file >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Tue, 2018-05-22 at 07:52 -0500, Ben Hest wrote: >>>>>>>>> From a Digi-Key KiCad library standpoint, as we're still in >>>>>>>> beta, I >>>>>>>>> would >>>>>>>>> gladly change the fields to whatever would be decided. >>>>>>>> Uniformity >>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>> plugins use would definitely be an advantage. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -Ben >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Tue, May 22, 2018 at 5:38 AM kristoffer ödmark < >>>>>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>>>> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Thanks! This is exactly what i was going for, non-intrusive >>>>>>>>>> oppurtunity >>>>>>>>>> for uniformity! >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I tested the bom2csv plugin, It did not include the empty >>>>>>>> fields. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I also tested the bom_csv_sorted_by_ref, it did not include the >>>>>>>>>> empty >>>>>>>>>> values, but it included some values I had not specified, >>>>>>>> such as >>>>>>>>>> Manufacturer and Vendor even if they were not provided in the >>>>>>>>>> schematic. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> - Kristoffer >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 2018-05-22 at 11:05 +0100, Jeff Young wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> I think I like this new patch. It provides the >>>>>>>> /opportunity/ for >>>>>>>>>>> uniformity, without getting in the way of those who want >>>>>>>> to go >>>>>>>>>>> their >>>>>>>>>>> own way. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Do the BOM generators automatically output all default >>>>>>>> fields or >>>>>>>>>>> only >>>>>>>>>>> those with values? >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On 22 May 2018, at 09:22, kristoffer ödmark >>>>>>>> <kristofferodmark90 >>>>>>>>>>>> @gma >>>>>>>>>>>> il.com <http://il.com/>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Please disregard my previous mail, it got mangled badly >>>>>>>>>>>> somehow, it >>>>>>>>>>>> did >>>>>>>>>>>> not look like that in my editor at least. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 2018-05-21 at 18:22 -0400, Wayne Stambaugh wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> Eeschema already supports creating default optional >>>>>>>> fields in >>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>> configuration settings dialog. Used correctly, these >>>>>>>> will >>>>>>>>>>>>> give >>>>>>>>>>>>> you >>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>> same optional field names for every project without >>>>>>>> having to >>>>>>>>>>>>> add >>>>>>>>>>>>> them >>>>>>>>>>>>> by hand to each symbol and possibly typing in >>>>>>>> different field >>>>>>>>>>>>> names >>>>>>>>>>>>> by >>>>>>>>>>>>> accident. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Different users will still type in different field >>>>>>>> names for >>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>> same >>>>>>>>>>>> things though. What you describe works as long as there >>>>>>>> is only >>>>>>>>>>>> one >>>>>>>>>>>> person in the entire projects lifetime, using only one >>>>>>>>>>>> computer. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> The proposed patch would intermingle the default fields >>>>>>>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>>>>>>> existing schematic symbol fields which would break >>>>>>>> existing >>>>>>>>>>>>> BOMs >>>>>>>>>>>>> which I >>>>>>>>>>>>> don't think users will appreciate. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> The proposed patch will only change default settings, >>>>>>>> existing >>>>>>>>>>>> users >>>>>>>>>>>> with a config already in place will not be affected. I >>>>>>>> realised >>>>>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>>>> the fields now accept empty values as well, so existing >>>>>>>> boms on >>>>>>>>>>>> new >>>>>>>>>>>> installations will not be affected either. I updated >>>>>>>> the patch, >>>>>>>>>>>> so >>>>>>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>>>>>> will not affect anyone that doesnt use the fields. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> [...] As I've stated before, I can set 10 >>>>>>>>>>>>> different designers down and I will get 10 different >>>>>>>> sets of >>>>>>>>>>>>> default >>>>>>>>>>>>> field names. This really seems like me to be a >>>>>>>> configuration >>>>>>>>>>>>> issue. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> This is the problems I want to address, because those 10 >>>>>>>>>>>> designers >>>>>>>>>>>> will >>>>>>>>>>>> by experience also spell the same field in 10 different >>>>>>>> ways. >>>>>>>>>>>> Making >>>>>>>>>>>> their fields incompatable. MPN, MFPN, #mfg, ManufPart, >>>>>>>> etc etc. >>>>>>>>>>>> Let >>>>>>>>>>>> those 10 designers remove the fields they do not want >>>>>>>> instead. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> The only possible solution that I would accept is to >>>>>>>> move the >>>>>>>>>>>>> default >>>>>>>>>>>>> field definitions from the eeschema configuration >>>>>>>> file into >>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>> default >>>>>>>>>>>>> kicad project file. This way existing projects would >>>>>>>> not be >>>>>>>>>>>>> polluted >>>>>>>>>>>>> with the proposed default fields and users could >>>>>>>> define their >>>>>>>>>>>>> own >>>>>>>>>>>>> default fields in a custom project file. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Default fields does not pollute if they are empty, they >>>>>>>> just >>>>>>>>>>>> give a >>>>>>>>>>>> hint of what data could be put into the schematic, same >>>>>>>> as with >>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>> datasheet field, which is not often used. Funny how >>>>>>>> noone ever >>>>>>>>>>>> complains about that one. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> [...] >>>>>>>>>>>>> A more flexible solution would be to add a "File->New >>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>>>>>>> Custom >>>>>>>>>>>>> Template" command to KiCad to allow the user to >>>>>>>> select any >>>>>>>>>>>>> custom >>>>>>>>>>>>> project file. This would allow for multiple custom >>>>>>>> project >>>>>>>>>>>>> files >>>>>>>>>>>>> instead of forcing the user to use only a single default >>>>>>>>>>>>> project >>>>>>>>>>>>> file. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> As long as the "File->New Project" would include the >>>>>>>> additional >>>>>>>>>>>> fields >>>>>>>>>>>> and then people can use "New from Custom Template" >>>>>>>> means they >>>>>>>>>>>> can >>>>>>>>>>>> use a >>>>>>>>>>>> template that is empty. Otherwise it would defeat the >>>>>>>> purpose. >>>>>>>>>>>> I am >>>>>>>>>>>> proposing a slightly different default configuration, >>>>>>>> not any >>>>>>>>>>>> change in >>>>>>>>>>>> how people will use the software. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Wayne >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On 05/20/2018 06:27 PM, Andrey Kuznetsov wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I agree, I had the same issue when I was doing my >>>>>>>> board, I >>>>>>>>>>>>>> needed a >>>>>>>>>>>>>> field for all components, and I had to manually add >>>>>>>> it for >>>>>>>>>>>>>> every >>>>>>>>>>>>>> item, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> there was no way to add this field to all >>>>>>>> components at the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> same >>>>>>>>>>>>>> time or >>>>>>>>>>>>>> to have it add by default from the addition of a new >>>>>>>>>>>>>> component >>>>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the sheet. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Which reminds me, Cadence Designer has tools to >>>>>>>> manipulate >>>>>>>>>>>>>> fields >>>>>>>>>>>>>> on a >>>>>>>>>>>>>> large scale, whether to add, delete, show, hide, >>>>>>>> etc, this >>>>>>>>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>>>>>>> something >>>>>>>>>>>>>> that would be nice to have in KiCAD, either that or >>>>>>>> a table >>>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>> all >>>>>>>>>>>>>> components for the sheet or schematic and columns >>>>>>>> for each >>>>>>>>>>>>>> field, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>>>>>>>> ability to show/hide each cell individually. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I think the ultimate goal is to make the Symbol >>>>>>>> Table more >>>>>>>>>>>>>> useful, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> but >>>>>>>>>>>>>> that'll take to long for v5 so if Kristoffer's >>>>>>>> patch allows >>>>>>>>>>>>>> an >>>>>>>>>>>>>> easy >>>>>>>>>>>>>> way >>>>>>>>>>>>>> to add fields to all components or similar, I'd say >>>>>>>> do it >>>>>>>>>>>>>> because >>>>>>>>>>>>>> people >>>>>>>>>>>>>> will be pissed and waste their time doing it for every >>>>>>>>>>>>>> component in >>>>>>>>>>>>>> their schematic. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, May 20, 2018 at 3:01 PM, kristoffer Ödmark >>>>>>>>>>>>>> <[email protected] >>>>>>>> <mailto:[email protected]> >>>>>>>> <mailto:kristofferodmark90@gm <mailto:kristofferodmark90@gm> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> ail. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> com> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I obvviously disagree, the correct solution >>>>>>>> would be to >>>>>>>>>>>>>> have >>>>>>>>>>>>>> both. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> This does not hinder that, its not even the same >>>>>>>>>>>>>> problem. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> The problem is for everyone who want for example the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Manufacturer >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Part Number will have to define a fieldname, >>>>>>>> which every >>>>>>>>>>>>>> time >>>>>>>>>>>>>> results in them abbreviating it to something >>>>>>>> different. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hence >>>>>>>>>>>>>> nobody >>>>>>>>>>>>>> can work with Manufacturer Part Numbers. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Here is something similar, Imagine all of the >>>>>>>> colours in >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kicad >>>>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>>> all of the layers where white by default. Have fun >>>>>>>>>>>>>> defining >>>>>>>>>>>>>> all >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> colours yourself. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Maybe you want to define them yourself, nobody is >>>>>>>>>>>>>> stopping >>>>>>>>>>>>>> you >>>>>>>>>>>>>> now >>>>>>>>>>>>>> either, just get cracking. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> How easy would it be for you to look at the board >>>>>>>>>>>>>> someone >>>>>>>>>>>>>> else >>>>>>>>>>>>>> made >>>>>>>>>>>>>> later and understand what is what? Maybe for >>>>>>>> some that >>>>>>>>>>>>>> is a >>>>>>>>>>>>>> better >>>>>>>>>>>>>> solution, but for me that >>>>>>>>>>>>>> would be an extreme example of bad default values. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> This is how the default fields are now, they are >>>>>>>> white, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>>>>>>> more >>>>>>>>>>>>>> like >>>>>>>>>>>>>> see-throught, which makes life harder for anyone >>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>>>>>> wants to contribute or create tools that >>>>>>>> interact with >>>>>>>>>>>>>> kicad, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> and as >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I previously said, this is only a default, you >>>>>>>> are still >>>>>>>>>>>>>> equally able to add/remove or change the fields >>>>>>>> how you >>>>>>>>>>>>>> want >>>>>>>>>>>>>> to. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> But, tools like kibom or various other web-based >>>>>>>> tools >>>>>>>>>>>>>> can >>>>>>>>>>>>>> much >>>>>>>>>>>>>> easier integrate to it, or at least support a >>>>>>>> default >>>>>>>>>>>>>> value >>>>>>>>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>>>>>>> well. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> So for the majority of users, who doesnt change >>>>>>>>>>>>>> defaults, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the tool would just work. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I will reiterate, I do not care what they are >>>>>>>> named, I >>>>>>>>>>>>>> want >>>>>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>>>>> default field where I can put my manufacturer part >>>>>>>>>>>>>> number, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> amongs >>>>>>>>>>>>>> others. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> The specific abbreviation or name does not >>>>>>>> matter, If i >>>>>>>>>>>>>> care, I >>>>>>>>>>>>>> can >>>>>>>>>>>>>> manually add/remove my own fields *JUST AS I DO >>>>>>>> NOW*, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> but >>>>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the people >>>>>>>>>>>>>> who use it, it will be easier across projects, >>>>>>>> for the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> people >>>>>>>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>>>>>> dont, It will not matter. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sane defaults matter. A lot actually. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> - Kristoffer >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2018-05-20 23:40, José Ignacio wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I dont like this, the right solution would be to >>>>>>>>>>>>>> allow >>>>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>>> importing a default config into kicad for things >>>>>>>>>>>>>> like >>>>>>>>>>>>>> that, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>>>>>>> different groups will have different policies. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, May 20, 2018 at 3:31 PM, Kristoffer >>>>>>>> Ödmark >>>>>>>>>>>>>> <[email protected] >>>>>>>> <mailto:[email protected]> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:[email protected] >>>>>>>> <mailto:[email protected]>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:[email protected] >>>>>>>> <mailto:[email protected]> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:[email protected] >>>>>>>> <mailto:[email protected]>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> The patch should only affect first startup, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> changes >>>>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> fields >>>>>>>>>>>>>> will be saved >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On May 20, 2018 22:18, "Seth Hillbrand" >>>>>>>>>>>>>> <[email protected] >>>>>>>> <mailto:[email protected]> <mailto:seth.hillbrand@gma >>>>>>>> <mailto:seth.hillbrand@gma> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> il.c >>>>>>>>>>>>>> om> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:[email protected] >>>>>>>> <mailto:[email protected]> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:[email protected] >>>>>>>> <mailto:[email protected]>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Kristoffer- >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> This feels like a management issue >>>>>>>> rather >>>>>>>>>>>>>> than a >>>>>>>>>>>>>> tool >>>>>>>>>>>>>> issue. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> If the user doesn't want any extra >>>>>>>> fields, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> how >>>>>>>>>>>>>> would your >>>>>>>>>>>>>> patch allow that? >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> -S >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Am So., 20. Mai 2018 um 13:00 Uhr >>>>>>>> schrieb >>>>>>>>>>>>>> kristoffer Ödmark >>>>>>>>>>>>>> <[email protected] >>>>>>>> <mailto:[email protected]> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:[email protected] >>>>>>>> <mailto:[email protected]>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:[email protected] >>>>>>>> <mailto:[email protected]> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:[email protected] >>>>>>>> <mailto:[email protected]>>>>: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hello! >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I will open this can of worms >>>>>>>> again, I >>>>>>>>>>>>>> feel >>>>>>>>>>>>>> that I have >>>>>>>>>>>>>> to. So from what >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I gather we have proffessionals >>>>>>>> as the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> main >>>>>>>>>>>>>> aim >>>>>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kicad. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> The reason I will open this >>>>>>>> issue again >>>>>>>>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>>>>>> feel we >>>>>>>>>>>>>> have a >>>>>>>>>>>>>> collaboration issue, maybe not a >>>>>>>> mayor >>>>>>>>>>>>>> one. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> But >>>>>>>>>>>>>> one >>>>>>>>>>>>>> nonetheless. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> We really need more default >>>>>>>> fields for >>>>>>>>>>>>>> our >>>>>>>>>>>>>> schematic >>>>>>>>>>>>>> symbols. Im not >>>>>>>>>>>>>> proposing required fields, I am >>>>>>>> *ONLY* >>>>>>>>>>>>>> proposing that >>>>>>>>>>>>>> there should be default fields added >>>>>>>>>>>>>> into >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> default >>>>>>>>>>>>>> fields settings >>>>>>>>>>>>>> tab. I am not proposing they >>>>>>>> need to be >>>>>>>>>>>>>> filled >>>>>>>>>>>>>> in the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> libraries, nor that people need >>>>>>>> to use >>>>>>>>>>>>>> them. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> only that >>>>>>>>>>>>>> they need to >>>>>>>>>>>>>> exist with a fresh install of >>>>>>>> kicad so >>>>>>>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>>>>>> easy >>>>>>>>>>>>>> problems >>>>>>>>>>>>>> such as theese do not happen: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> - Collaborators working on >>>>>>>> the same >>>>>>>>>>>>>> project >>>>>>>>>>>>>> will not >>>>>>>>>>>>>> create >>>>>>>>>>>>>> duplicate fields in libs/projects >>>>>>>>>>>>>> describing >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the same >>>>>>>>>>>>>> thing by mistake >>>>>>>>>>>>>> - Projects that aim to >>>>>>>> interact or >>>>>>>>>>>>>> add >>>>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kicad can >>>>>>>>>>>>>> assume that the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Fields will exist, and will know >>>>>>>> what >>>>>>>>>>>>>> name/tag >>>>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>>>> look for >>>>>>>>>>>>>> (bom exporters, price >>>>>>>> checkers, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> MacroFab, etc) >>>>>>>>>>>>>> - Open source projects will be >>>>>>>>>>>>>> easier >>>>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>>>> collaborate, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> read and order >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> The reason I think it is better >>>>>>>> to have >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> fields by >>>>>>>>>>>>>> default than the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> current solution to add them is >>>>>>>> that the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> majority >>>>>>>>>>>>>> will use >>>>>>>>>>>>>> what exists, and tools can >>>>>>>> support it >>>>>>>>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> very >>>>>>>>>>>>>> beginning, people >>>>>>>>>>>>>> with inhouse tools seems to dislike >>>>>>>>>>>>>> this, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> since >>>>>>>>>>>>>> they >>>>>>>>>>>>>> map their >>>>>>>>>>>>>> parts with an inhouse number - >>>>>>>> and then >>>>>>>>>>>>>> handle >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> information about the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> part there. From what I gather, >>>>>>>> this is >>>>>>>>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> majority, and >>>>>>>>>>>>>> these persons still modify the >>>>>>>> default >>>>>>>>>>>>>> fields >>>>>>>>>>>>>> settings. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I spent maybe 30-40 mins >>>>>>>> checking the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> "made >>>>>>>>>>>>>> with kicad" >>>>>>>>>>>>>> projects, I >>>>>>>>>>>>>> found that the most common >>>>>>>> addition to >>>>>>>>>>>>>> libs >>>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>>> schematics >>>>>>>>>>>>>> are: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> - Manufacturers part >>>>>>>> number, these >>>>>>>>>>>>>> were >>>>>>>>>>>>>> named >>>>>>>>>>>>>> widely >>>>>>>>>>>>>> different in >>>>>>>>>>>>>> projects, (BOM, MP, MPN, #mfg, or >>>>>>>>>>>>>> different >>>>>>>>>>>>>> syntaxes in >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the Value field ) >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I even saw a mix of >>>>>>>> these in >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> same >>>>>>>>>>>>>> project >>>>>>>>>>>>>> once, along with >>>>>>>>>>>>>> some people having the vendor id >>>>>>>> only. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> - Manufacturer ( found some >>>>>>>>>>>>>> different >>>>>>>>>>>>>> languages >>>>>>>>>>>>>> though ) >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> more uncommon things was, Tolerance( >>>>>>>>>>>>>> 10%, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> 20pps), >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ratings >>>>>>>>>>>>>> ( 1/4W, 85C, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> 16V ), Vendor information and >>>>>>>> different >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Descriptions. They >>>>>>>>>>>>>> were named >>>>>>>>>>>>>> and abbreviated >>>>>>>>>>>>>> very differently accross projects. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> What I would like to see is these >>>>>>>>>>>>>> additional >>>>>>>>>>>>>> fields by >>>>>>>>>>>>>> default, but >>>>>>>>>>>>>> hidden from the schematic unless >>>>>>>> changed >>>>>>>>>>>>>> by >>>>>>>>>>>>>> user. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tolerance ( used for setting >>>>>>>>>>>>>> tolerances >>>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>> resistors, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> capacitors, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> oscillators, etc ) >>>>>>>>>>>>>> MaxRating ( field were one can >>>>>>>>>>>>>> specify >>>>>>>>>>>>>> max >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Voltage, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ampere, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Frequency, or whatever the component >>>>>>>>>>>>>> needs ) >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Manufacturer ( For inhouse >>>>>>>> numbers, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> they >>>>>>>>>>>>>> could >>>>>>>>>>>>>> either >>>>>>>>>>>>>> just remove >>>>>>>>>>>>>> it, or use the company/group name ) >>>>>>>>>>>>>> MPN ( Maybe PartNumber could be >>>>>>>>>>>>>> used >>>>>>>>>>>>>> here, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>>> people >>>>>>>>>>>>>> who use >>>>>>>>>>>>>> inhouse numbers use it aswell, I >>>>>>>> dont >>>>>>>>>>>>>> really >>>>>>>>>>>>>> care >>>>>>>>>>>>>> what its >>>>>>>>>>>>>> called, as >>>>>>>>>>>>>> long as its called something ) >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Vendor >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Notes >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I would be all up for extra >>>>>>>>>>>>>> additions/removals, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> but I >>>>>>>>>>>>>> would prefer if >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the naming is not discussed, but >>>>>>>> rather >>>>>>>>>>>>>> just >>>>>>>>>>>>>> decided/agreed upon by >>>>>>>>>>>>>> someone in the lead team. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> The very least I think should be >>>>>>>> added >>>>>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>>>> case >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> previous is to much are: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tolerance >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Manufacturer >>>>>>>>>>>>>> MPN >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I attach a patch for the minimal >>>>>>>> set, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> tested >>>>>>>>>>>>>> on >>>>>>>>>>>>>> linux by >>>>>>>>>>>>>> removing the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> .config/kicad/eeschema file. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> - Kristoffer >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> ps >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Some github files i reviewed, >>>>>>>> not all: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> https://github.com/AnaviTechnology/anavi-gardening/b >>>>>>>> <https://github.com/AnaviTechnology/anavi-gardening/b> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> lob/ >>>>>>>>>>>>>> mas >>>>>>>>>>>>>> ter/MCP3002-I_SN.lib >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> <https://github.com/AnaviTechnology/anavi-gardening/ >>>>>>>> <https://github.com/AnaviTechnology/anavi-gardening/> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> blob >>>>>>>>>>>>>> /ma >>>>>>>>>>>>>> ster/MCP3002-I_SN.lib> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> <https://github.com/AnaviTechnology/anavi-gardening/ >>>>>>>> <https://github.com/AnaviTechnology/anavi-gardening/> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> blob >>>>>>>>>>>>>> /ma >>>>>>>>>>>>>> ster/MCP3002-I_SN.lib >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> <https://github.com/AnaviTechnology/anavi-gardening/ >>>>>>>> <https://github.com/AnaviTechnology/anavi-gardening/> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> blob >>>>>>>>>>>>>> /ma >>>>>>>>>>>>>> ster/MCP3002-I_SN.lib>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> https://github.com/jonpe960/blixten/blob/master/Blix >>>>>>>> <https://github.com/jonpe960/blixten/blob/master/Blix> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> ten% >>>>>>>>>>>>>> 20L >>>>>>>>>>>>>> ED%20Device/Blixten.sch >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> <https://github.com/jonpe960/blixten/blob/master/Bli >>>>>>>> <https://github.com/jonpe960/blixten/blob/master/Bli> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> xten >>>>>>>>>>>>>> %20 >>>>>>>>>>>>>> LED%20Device/Blixten.sch> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> <https://github.com/jonpe960/blixten/blob/master/Bli >>>>>>>> <https://github.com/jonpe960/blixten/blob/master/Bli> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> xten >>>>>>>>>>>>>> %20 >>>>>>>>>>>>>> LED%20Device/Blixten.sch >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> <https://github.com/jonpe960/blixten/blob/master/Bli >>>>>>>> <https://github.com/jonpe960/blixten/blob/master/Bli> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> xten >>>>>>>>>>>>>> %20 >>>>>>>>>>>>>> LED%20Device/Blixten.sch>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> https://github.com/paltatech/half-bridge/blob/master >>>>>>>> <https://github.com/paltatech/half-bridge/blob/master> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> /pcb >>>>>>>>>>>>>> %20 >>>>>>>>>>>>>> design/IGBT_board-cache.lib >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> <https://github.com/paltatech/half-bridge/blob/maste >>>>>>>> <https://github.com/paltatech/half-bridge/blob/maste> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> r/pc >>>>>>>>>>>>>> b%2 >>>>>>>>>>>>>> 0design/IGBT_board-cache.lib> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> <https://github.com/paltatech/half-bridge/blob/maste >>>>>>>> <https://github.com/paltatech/half-bridge/blob/maste> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> r/pc >>>>>>>>>>>>>> b%2 >>>>>>>>>>>>>> 0design/IGBT_board-cache.lib >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> <https://github.com/paltatech/half-bridge/blob/maste >>>>>>>> <https://github.com/paltatech/half-bridge/blob/maste> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> r/pc >>>>>>>>>>>>>> b%2 >>>>>>>>>>>>>> 0design/IGBT_board-cache.lib>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> https://github.com/pluggee/KiCADLibs/blob/master/sch >>>>>>>> <https://github.com/pluggee/KiCADLibs/blob/master/sch> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> /cap >>>>>>>>>>>>>> _sm >>>>>>>>>>>>>> d.lib >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> <https://github.com/pluggee/KiCADLibs/blob/master/sc >>>>>>>> <https://github.com/pluggee/KiCADLibs/blob/master/sc> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> h/ca >>>>>>>>>>>>>> p_s >>>>>>>>>>>>>> md.lib> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> <https://github.com/pluggee/KiCADLibs/blob/master/sc >>>>>>>> <https://github.com/pluggee/KiCADLibs/blob/master/sc> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> h/ca >>>>>>>>>>>>>> p_s >>>>>>>>>>>>>> md.lib >>>>>>>> <https://github.com/pluggee/KiCADLibs/blob/master/sc >>>>>>>> <https://github.com/pluggee/KiCADLibs/blob/master/sc> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> h/ca >>>>>>>>>>>>>> p_sm >>>>>>>>>>>>>> d.lib>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> https://github.com/jim17/memtype/blob/master/schemat >>>>>>>> <https://github.com/jim17/memtype/blob/master/schemat> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> ic_p >>>>>>>>>>>>>> cb/ >>>>>>>>>>>>>> electronic_design_kicad/electronic_design_kicad.sch >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> <https://github.com/jim17/memtype/blob/master/schema >>>>>>>> <https://github.com/jim17/memtype/blob/master/schema> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> tic_ >>>>>>>>>>>>>> pcb >>>>>>>>>>>>>> /electronic_design_kicad/electronic_design_kicad.sch> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> <https://github.com/jim17/memtype/blob/master/schema >>>>>>>> <https://github.com/jim17/memtype/blob/master/schema> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> tic_ >>>>>>>>>>>>>> pcb >>>>>>>>>>>>>> /electronic_design_kicad/electronic_design_kicad.sch >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> <https://github.com/jim17/memtype/blob/master/schema >>>>>>>> <https://github.com/jim17/memtype/blob/master/schema> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> tic_ >>>>>>>>>>>>>> pcb >>>>>>>>>>>>>> /electronic_design_kicad/electronic_design_kicad.sch>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>>> ____ >>>>>>>>>>>>>> ___ >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Mailing list: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers >>>>>>>> <https://launchpad.net/%7Ekicad-developers> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers >>>>>>>> <https://launchpad.net/%7Ekicad-developers>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> <https://launchpad.net/%7Ekicad-develope >>>>>>>> <https://launchpad.net/%7Ekicad-develope> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> rs >>>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://launchpad.net/%7Ekicad-developers >>>>>>>> <https://launchpad.net/%7Ekicad-developers>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Post to : >>>>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>>>>>>>>>> nchp >>>>>>>>>>>>>> ad. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> net >>>>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:[email protected] >>>>>>>> <mailto:[email protected]>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> <mailto:[email protected] >>>>>>>> <mailto:[email protected]> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> .net >>>>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:[email protected] >>>>>>>> <mailto:[email protected]>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Unsubscribe : >>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers >>>>>>>> <https://launchpad.net/%7Ekicad-developers> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers >>>>>>>> <https://launchpad.net/%7Ekicad-developers>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> <https://launchpad.net/%7Ekicad-develope >>>>>>>> <https://launchpad.net/%7Ekicad-develope> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> rs >>>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://launchpad.net/%7Ekicad-developers >>>>>>>> <https://launchpad.net/%7Ekicad-developers>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> More help : >>>>>>>> https://help.launchpad.net <https://help.launchpad.net/> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> /Lis >>>>>>>>>>>>>> tHe >>>>>>>>>>>>>> lp >>>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp >>>>>>>> <https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> <https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp >>>>>>>> <https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp >>>>>>>> <https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Mailing list: >>>>>>>> https://launchpad.net/~kicad-devel >>>>>>>> <https://launchpad.net/%7Ekicad-devel> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> oper >>>>>>>>>>>>>> s >>>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers >>>>>>>> <https://launchpad.net/%7Ekicad-developers>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> <https://launchpad.net/%7Ekicad-developers >>>>>>>> <https://launchpad.net/%7Ekicad-developers> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://launchpad.net/%7Ekicad-developers >>>>>>>> <https://launchpad.net/%7Ekicad-developers>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Post to : >>>>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>>>>>>>>>> et >>>>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:[email protected] >>>>>>>> <mailto:[email protected]>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> <mailto:[email protected] >>>>>>>> <mailto:[email protected]> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:[email protected] >>>>>>>> <mailto:[email protected]>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Unsubscribe : >>>>>>>> https://launchpad.net/~kicad-devel >>>>>>>> <https://launchpad.net/%7Ekicad-devel> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> oper >>>>>>>>>>>>>> s >>>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers >>>>>>>> <https://launchpad.net/%7Ekicad-developers>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> <https://launchpad.net/%7Ekicad-developers >>>>>>>> <https://launchpad.net/%7Ekicad-developers> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://launchpad.net/%7Ekicad-developers >>>>>>>> <https://launchpad.net/%7Ekicad-developers>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> More help : >>>>>>>> https://help.launchpad.net/ListHel >>>>>>>> <https://help.launchpad.net/ListHel> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> p >>>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp >>>>>>>> <https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp >>>>>>>> <https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp >>>>>>>> <https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Mailing list: >>>>>>>> https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers >>>>>>>> <https://launchpad.net/%7Ekicad-developers> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers >>>>>>>> <https://launchpad.net/%7Ekicad-developers>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Post to : >>>>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>>>> <mailto:[email protected]> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:[email protected] >>>>>>>> <mailto:[email protected]>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Unsubscribe : >>>>>>>> https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers >>>>>>>> <https://launchpad.net/%7Ekicad-developers> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers >>>>>>>> <https://launchpad.net/%7Ekicad-developers>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> More help : >>>>>>>> https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp >>>>>>>> <https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp >>>>>>>> <https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Remember The Past, Live The Present, Change The Future >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Those who look only to the past or the present are >>>>>>>> certain >>>>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>>>> miss >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> future [JFK] >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >>>>>>>> <mailto:[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Live Long and Prosper, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Andrey >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Mailing list: >>>>>>>> https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers >>>>>>>> <https://launchpad.net/%7Ekicad-developers> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Post to : [email protected] >>>>>>>> <mailto:[email protected]> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Unsubscribe : >>>>>>>> https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers >>>>>>>> <https://launchpad.net/%7Ekicad-developers> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp >>>>>>>> <https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers >>>>>>>> <https://launchpad.net/%7Ekicad-developers> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Post to : [email protected] >>>>>>>> <mailto:[email protected]> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers >>>>>>>> <https://launchpad.net/%7Ekicad-developers> >>>>>>>>>>>>> More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp >>>>>>>> <https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> <0001-Added-default-fields-not-affect-previous- >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> designs.patch>_______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers >>>>>>>> <https://launchpad.net/%7Ekicad-developers> >>>>>>>>>>>> Post to : [email protected] >>>>>>>> <mailto:[email protected]> >>>>>>>>>>>> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers >>>>>>>> <https://launchpad.net/%7Ekicad-developers> >>>>>>>>>>>> More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp >>>>>>>> <https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers >>>>>>>> <https://launchpad.net/%7Ekicad-developers> >>>>>>>>>> Post to : [email protected] >>>>>>>> <mailto:[email protected]> >>>>>>>>>> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers >>>>>>>> <https://launchpad.net/%7Ekicad-developers> >>>>>>>>>> More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp >>>>>>>> <https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers >>>>>>>> <https://launchpad.net/%7Ekicad-developers> >>>>>>>> Post to : [email protected] >>>>>>>> <mailto:[email protected]> >>>>>>>> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers >>>>>>>> <https://launchpad.net/%7Ekicad-developers> >>>>>>>> More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp >>>>>>>> <https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers >>>>>>>> Post to : [email protected] >>>>>>>> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers >>>>>>>> More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers >>>>>>> <https://launchpad.net/%7Ekicad-developers> >>>>>>> Post to : [email protected] >>>>>>> <mailto:[email protected]> >>>>>>> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers >>>>>>> <https://launchpad.net/%7Ekicad-developers> >>>>>>> More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp >>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers >>>> Post to : [email protected] >>>> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers >>>> More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers >>> Post to : [email protected] >>> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers >>> More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers >> Post to : [email protected] >> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers >> More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp > > > _______________________________________________ > Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers > Post to : [email protected] > Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers > More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp _______________________________________________ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers Post to : [email protected] Unsubscribe : 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