DJA wrote:
Paul G. Allen wrote:
On Mon, 2007-03-26 at 18:10 -0700, Andrew Lentvorski wrote:
Christian Seberino wrote:
On Mon, March 26, 2007 5:32 pm, kelsey hudson wrote:
In fact, in following this thread, I've seen many posts by many people
that do not have an understanding of Christian teachings.
Exactly _which_ Christian teachings? Can you point me to one specific
Bible (last time I was in a Christian bookstore, there were dozens -
all different)?
All different? Different wording, yes. Different teachings? No.
It makes me
wonder how many have any understanding of Islam, Judaism, or any other
religions that are not practice by those talking about them. This points
to one cause of religious and other conflicts - they often arise from a
complete misunderstanding of the other side.
My observation is that most self-proclaimed Christians _I've_ met
(including in my own family - obviously) don't even have a basic
understanding of their own beliefs, let alone the accuracies of the
tenets of their own religion. Including an _accurate_ knowledge of its
history, based on empirical, verifiable data and research. In fact,
it's my considerable opinion that the basis of most religions extent
today (orthodox and otherwise) is just plain made up nonsense which
has been, as a result of centuries of both inadvertent and malicious
corruption of things written and said hundreds and thousands of years
ago, become so inconsistent and impractical (as in unpracticable) as
to be a primary cause, rather than a primary solution, to the Human
specie's problems.
Your "considerable opinion" has been jaded by some unreliable sources.
Jesus Himself said "Think not that I came to send peace on earth: I came
not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man a variance
against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the
daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes shall be
they of his own household. He that loves his father or his mother more
than me is not worthy of me: and he that loves son or daughter more than
me is not worthy of me." He predicted that this movement would be a
bloody one, but not because of the tenets of the movement, but because
of the opposition to it.
Given that virtually none of the original sources for any of these
teachings has existed for at least a thousand years, it's no wonder
it's easier and easier to espouse some personal belief and attribute
it to the god of choice. IOW, just make the shit up and say god said so.
Check your sources. The oldest existing manuscripts found have been
dated to within a century of the original time period.
In every belief system, there are fringes on both ends of the norm
(think politics with the left, moderate, right, center, etc.) Most of
what I've seen discussed in this thread regarding Christianity, God, The
Bible, etc. are results of views of the fringes of the basic
religion(s).
PGA
If there were only right, center, and left that would be refreshing.
However, it's not nearly that simple. There are literally thousands of
differentiations of belief systems in Christianity alone. Which one do
I choose? Each thinks the other is wrong, or at least not quite right.
How do I know? Of course, they all will say "It's in the Bible, read
it for yourself". But again, which Bible? And when I do read it, I
find that it doesn't contain what god said, but rather what someone
thought/claimed/believed/hallucinated god said. Even worse it's really
what someone thinks someone thought someone else thought someone said
they heard someone say god said. And they're ALL DEAD!
If you can read Hebrew or Greek, get one of those. Don't even bother
with a translation.
Or get an Interlinear Bible. This shows the original language on one
line with an english translation, word for word, right below it.
(Caution: Hebrew reads from right to left.)
On the opposite side of the spectrum are the paraphrased versions, which
are not focused on verbatim translation but rather focus on the idea
that was intended.
If you you don't want paraphased and you can't (and don't want to) read
and understand any Hebrew or Greek, pick up a Parallel Bible. There are
many different flavors for this even, but that's a good thing. A
parallel Bible will have several different translations side by side.
And that will show you the harmony between the translations. Every
translation is worded differently just as no two interpreters will
translate exactly the same your words into, say, Spanish. If you write
an article in English, and ask 10 different translators to translate
your article into Spanish, no two translations will be worded the same,
especially if one translator feels like the focus of the article is the
passion with which you wrote it and another feels that the technical
merits are the most important. When there is more than one way to
translate something, the translator will tend to follow the translation
that he feels best fits the intention of the original author. The
translators of the King James Version (KJV) felt that the translation
should be as literal as possible. Others felt differently. But even
with these differences, none of them differ significantly in teachings
(except for those that twist the translation to fit their own cultic
doctrine, such as Jehovah's Witnesses, and to see that for yourself, you
would have to learn the original language or trust others who have, but
the good thing is that you usually won't even find these twisted
versions in Christian bookstores (another good thing is that the truth
can still be found even in those twisted versions, as long as you know
how to spot the land mines)).
(One way to identify a cult is to ask them if any other Christian sect
are true Christians and if anyone can be saved outside their own
organization. If their answer is that salvation is mostly possible only
through their group, then it's probably a cult, and this will include
the Jehovah's Witnesses, the Mormons, Scientologists, and others. But
it will not include most Baptists, Episcopalians, Adventists, Lutherans,
and so on.)
In any case, no one of that particular religious persuasion really
wants to know what _I_ think or believe. Because what I think didn't
come from their bible, and if if I say _I_ talked to god and it said
what I said was true, I'm some kind of nut case.
The Bible instructs us "Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the
spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone
out into the world. Hereby you all know the Spirit of God: Every
spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ (the anointed of God) is come in
the flesh is of God: and every spirit that confesses not that Jesus
Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of
antichrist, whereof you all have heard that it should come, and even now
already is it in the world."
And in history, many have claimed to speak for God. A biblical test for
a prophet is that 100% of what he prophesies must come to pass. If his
prophecies turn out wrong, that prophet (under Jewish law given by God)
*must* be put to death.
But I imagine that even if you were to see the miracles of God for
yourself (even as the children of Israel did when He parted the Red Sea
and killed the Egytian army), you would *still* not believe (even as the
children of Israel continued not to believe). Korah and his followers
(very highly respected men) rose up against Moses, claiming that the
whole congregation was holy and that the Lord was among them all, and
further claimed that Moses was setting himself as the ruler of the
people and that this appointment was his own doing, not that of God.
Moses prophesied that if these men were to die of natural causes then
his appointment was not of God, and further prophesied that if the earth
were to open up and swallow these men alive, then his appointment was of
God. The moment he finished speaking, the earth open up and swallowed
the men alive. But even this was not enough to convince the
congregation. The very next day they were accusing Moses of killing the
people of the Lord. God appeared and told Moses to get away from the
people so that he could consume them all. At this, Moses knew that a
plague had already begun and he took quick action to intervene. But
even so, 14,700 were killed by the plague in a very short time. I
suspect that you would have been just like all the others in this group,
not believing God even though seeing it for yourself.
But then they have no trouble believing that a bunch of guys who lived
thousands of years ago talked to god - but they /weren't/ nut cases.
But then maybe I'm being to rational; and rationality is anathema to
religion.
Yes, you are soooooo rational.
Religion has less to do with spiritual belief and more to do with the
social politicalization of spiritual beliefs in the form or rituals
and dogma for the purposes of controlling a population - for better or
worse. A religion is not a personal belief system. It is a political
system with a membership and a leadership. A herd of sheep with a
shepherd. The wolves are non-believers (i.e. those whose particular
spiritual beliefs are at odds with those of the shepherd). The
antithesis of what Jesus of Nazareth was apparently trying to teach.
You sure do like to sweep up all religions into one large group and talk
as if they are all the same. (If you cannot tell the differences,
perhaps you should stay silent in your ignorance.)
God said "For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of
God more than burnt offerings."
James (Jesus' brother) said, "But whoso looks into the perfect law of
liberty, and continues therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a
doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed. If any man
among you seem to be religious, and controls not his tongue, but
deceives his own heart, this man's religion is vain. Pure religion and
undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and
the widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the
world."
How ironic.
Just as ironic that you can speak so freely about all religion as if
there is no difference.
[And yes, Paul and I have had these discussions before.]
[I figured that.]
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