On Jan 2, 2008 8:27 PM, SJS <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > The problem is that there are real and valid concerns with IAS that > are patronizingly dismissed, and the reason for _THAT_ is, I believe, > that we don't recognize that not everyone is wired up the same way.
And not every one should be programming. > Some people Just Don't Care At All. They're comfortable with all of the > brace and indentation styles; I consider them the sort of people who can > enjoyably read _Moby Dick_ or _Gravity's Rainbow_ -- people capable of > amazing feats, but not someone who's advice I'll consider credible. Well, "I just don't care at all." I confess I have read _Moby Dick and _Gravity's Rainbow_. I do _not_ consider either an "amazing feat" nor do I expect _you_ to consider my advice credible. I gotta say though I will _not_ employ any programmer who considers these issues religious. If you really cannot read indented Python code then I suppose there are other places, like the university?, where you can push your biases upon the unwitting. So it goes, BobLQ > [snip] > > > Then you should go with 8 spaces. If you're going to normalize things, > > > then normalize 'em to the, well, normal definition, no? > > > > No. I've worked with so many developers that use 4 (whether actual > > spaces or tabs) that 8 just feels like a bizarre relic from decades > > ago. Kind of like wrapping code to 80 columns. I don't have an 80 > > column display anymore! (Heh, another hook for a religious war.) > > I do wrap at 80 columns. I don't use just one editor window, after all, > and arbitrary line-lengths pretty much forces me to edit just one file > at a time. (I worked with a guy -- a pythoner, in fact -- who did not > like the '80 character restriction'. He was always resizing windows, > which meant he frequently was grabbing the mouse. Quite the PITA.) > > I also print out code (yes! On paper!) every so often; to the printer, > tabs are 8 spaces; with long lines and 4-space tabs, it ends up > truncated (and unusable) or wrapped (and even harder to read). > > Nothing beats a pen and a printout for puzzling out the really tricky > stuff -- at least, not for me. And when it comes to IAS code, a pen > and a straightedge is essential! > > > > No, it wasn't. > > > > > > It wasn't a simple <pre>...</pre> block -- it was some sort of CSS > > > monster with div and span tags everywhere. All hail the new Web! > > > > Still not too hard. You can strip HTML tags. > > ...and reformat by hand. Yes. The problem is I wasn't willing to go thru > that sort of work just to try out a script to see if it did what it > promised. Instead of taking five minutes with a perl script to clean > up the potentially-useful python code, I spent ten minutes with a perl > script and did the job myself, AND had something I trusted when I was > done. > > > Look I'm not saying you didn't have this experience or that > > indentation-for-blocks is perfect. But I've cranked so much Python > > that I know it's not a major factor in day-to-day development. I > > didn't spend time every day dealing with mangled code. Or even every > > week or month. > > Indeed. And that's not the expectation. Day-to-day, the problem with IAS > is that I can't comfortably read it. The ability to comfortably and > unambiguously READ code is important to me. > > But code gets trashed often enough, by accident; having a way to recover > is very *important* to me. And minor off-by-one-column corruptions in > the code happen all the time, especially with "smart" editors, but they > don't affect functionality, so they're not really a problem. > > I acknowledge that what I consider important is often largely irrelevent > to others. That doesn't make it any less important, nor will I shut up > in the face of overwhelming conformism... (else I'd never have run Linux > all those years ago). > > [snip] > > > And I've never been able to read python. I can puzzle my way through > > > many (real) languages, but in python, the scoping is impossible to keep > > > track of. > > > > I don't even know what to say. I've never heard this before. Python > > looks a lot like pseudo-code. Real question: Can you read psuedo-code > > in C.S. books? It's typically indented and, yes, with an "end" at the > > end of blocks. If you can, was it that "end" that shifted you from a > > "cannot read" extreme to a "no problem" extreme? > > Actually, that is /exactly/ what I do. I put a closing token for each > block, and I'm good. (But annoyed, for having to do that.) > > I'm not hard-over on braces; I *am* hard-over on delimiters. Be they > C's }, pascal's end, PCPL's &end, or Objective-C's ], I need those > unambiguous block delimiters. > > What's amusing is that when I do read python or IAS psuedocode in a book > (or printed out), I annotate it with vertical lines from the initial > keyword to the closing block. That is, > > while expression1 while expression1 > if expression2 | if expression2 > do something ===> | | do something > else | else > do something else | |__do something else > |_____ > > ...which strikes me as just as practical as whitespace. "Pipes-as-syntax" > has all the advantages of whitespace, plus it avoids the whole space/tab > issue entirely without forcing one or the other. > > > I have seen Python code that I couldn't read because it had an > > atrocious structure and identifiers. But we've seen that in all > > languages. > > Yup. > > There's no language in which it is the least bit difficult to write > incomprehensible code. > > [snip] > > No, I was responding to your statement that Python is a toy language. > > It's perfectly valid to say "$X is a big company with some great > > products used by lots of people. $X used $Y, therefore $Y--whatever > > it's flaws--is not a toy." > > I have less faith in big companies than you do, it would seem. > > "Perfectly valid" does not at all describe my opinion of that statement. :-P > > > For example, I like Amazon, but I don't like Java. But I know Java is > > not a toy because some of Amazon is powered by it and that's a serious > > environment. > > You probably don't want my opinion on J2EE.... or rather, I'm not sure > I want to take the time to vent that much. > > [snip] > > -- > For every product $Z, $Z is shiny, $Z is great, and $Z is cool, > And if you can't bring yourself to love my $Z, then you're a tool! > Stewart Stremler > > > -- > [email protected] > http://www.kernel-panic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/kplug-lpsg > -- [email protected] http://www.kernel-panic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/kplug-lpsg
