Another problem is, like Dan said, that custom L4D2 campaigns are so much work, but are played relatively rarely. And that's something quite specific for L4D2. When I released Haunted Forest (and Night Terror earlier on, which is partially also my campaign), it was fairly well received and all and I noticed quite some games playing it. But this quickly faded after a few weeks and eventually, people totally ceased to play it. I mean I haven't seen any games playing it in months.
People just went back to playing the stock Valve maps (*cough*nomercydeadcenter*cough*). I'm not saying the Valve maps are bad! On the contrary, but people seem to stick to only those. Haunted Forest got another peak of interest when the guys at Valve featured it (thanks guys!) but the same shit happened: after a few weeks, they just stopped playing it. And it seems to happen to all custom campaigns out there, no matter how good they are. Th custom campaigns that are being played now, are the ones that were recently released but I predict that in a few weeks time, those too will be forgotten and the players will either go back to playing the stock maps, or they'll play the newest custom campaign then, and forget about it as well after a few more weeks. That's what makes it demoralizing to spend so much time on custom maps for L4D2. Haunted Forest took me 16 months, not even counting in the bugfixes and changes post-release, and now it looks like it never existed. Of course we make maps mainly because we like it and it's fun, but we're humans. And it's human nature to want appreciation for your work. TF2 or CS:GO or older CS:S maps on the other hand are played more widely. People love playing custom maps for those games. They're not afraid of trying something different than the stock maps. Hell, I can still find servers running some of my CS:S maps I released 6 years ago. I really don't feel like spending another 10 months finishing my current project knowing that barely anyone will be interested. I'm working on an inca-style TF2 MvM map right now with custom textures and all and I already have plenty of friends who love TF2 willing to test it with me and help me tweak the waves... Shame really, because L4D2 has so much potential for custom maps, but the players are simply not making it very rewarding. -Alex On Fri, Dec 13, 2013 at 7:21 PM, Kevin Mahoney <[email protected]> wrote: > I've been making stuff since Doom... > > ...but L4D was kind of the deal-breaker for individual modding for me. > After a while, the workflow pipeline for a whole campaign was just too > cumbersome for what it yielded in terms of exposure and playability. It's > sad, because it was a sort of culmination of a lot of great technologies > brought about with Source... especially with VPK files and nav meshes. The > problem for me was that there was little scaffolding/documentation afforded > for a lot of these items, making the process very tedious. By the time > L4D2 Workshop came out, it felt like it came too late. > > I don't regret doing L4D modding, however. I just wish I was able to > produce experiences akin to the stuff I made for Quake1/2/3, Unreal, and > CS:S — that's where I ultimately had the most fun because you could still > do it all as one person. I think it comes down to the fact that Valve's > engine wasn't being treated as much of a product (to be sold) as much as > UDK/Unity was, which is why the tools were more geared towards Valve > employees who were nice enough to share them with the world. > > The sad thing for me, however, is that I actually enjoy the more "rustic" > feel when it comes to Valve's tools. I'm really not being sarcastic when I > say that I love that we've essentially been using the same WorldCraft > editor that I was using back in the 90s. Why? Because it was simple and it > worked. They only changed things that needed to be changed. I like tools > where convention allows for speed... which is the same reason why I like > Maya despite it having the ugliest interface of all the 3d editors. > > > On Thu, Dec 12, 2013 at 7:21 PM, Adam Sierra <[email protected]> wrote: > > > To be completely honest, I've been making maps for Half-Life engine games > > since 1998. (Doom II before that) I've learned all I can from editing in > > the Source engine, today I only feel like it is holding me back. For one > > thing, Left 4 Dead maps require a HUGE INVESTMENT of your time. You > aren't > > making 'maps' when it comes to L4D editing.. you are literally making > what > > other companies would sell as a complete DLC add-on. They are called > > campaigns for a reason, and it's not only because they are made of more > > than one map... L4D authors have to consider MANY more facets of game > > design than your traditional level designer working on a TF2 map. Just > the > > huge amount of configuration you have to do, between all the scripts, nav > > meshes, PAK file .ini settings, directory structure, and how every custom > > asset requires very specific location setup with very specific material > > text files, etc, etc... it just takes forever to get anything done. > > > > I've since moved on. I now work with Unity 3D making 3D worlds I can > > explore in the Oculus Rift and where custom assets are ridiculously easy > to > > add. > > Though Unity 3D has the absolute WORST level editor experience. (tip: it > > has no level editor, it completely relies on you building EVERYTHING as > > models-- unless you purchase a third party add-on like ProBuilder which > is > > another can of worms but which is at least getting better every week...) > > > > > > On Thu, Dec 12, 2013 at 4:19 PM, Alexis H <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > Ah yes and additionally: I have a fair amount of friends who love MvM > for > > > TF2 and they love testing custom maps. So the temptation to move on to > > TF2 > > > mapping is very big. > > > I'll just have to learn how to make the cartoonesque TF2 style textures > > > with good ol' Photoshop :-) > > > It's actually harder than making realistic textures. > > > > > > - Alex > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Dec 12, 2013 at 10:15 PM, Alexis H <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > It's a shame, but I understand you guys. > > > > It' snot that L4D is more difficult to map for, it's just so much > more > > > > work. If it was my full time job I'd do it gladly, but unfortunately, > > it > > > > isn't. It's not only the fact that it's 4-5 maps, but also the fact > > that > > > > L4D take splace in a post-apocalyptic world. Everything is supposed > to > > > look > > > > like a dirty, messy wasteland as opposed to a clean, tidy world. > > > > And we all know that mapping a wasteland demands more detailing work > > that > > > > mapping something that is clean. > > > > > > > > And then of course, there's the fact that even with Valve's featuring > > of > > > > custom campaigns, people still tend to stay away from them. I don't > > know > > > > why. They're probably scared to play something different than No > Mercy > > > and > > > > Dead Center I guess. > > > > > > > > It's really a shame because L4D2 is a kickass game and I still want > to > > > > finish my campaign some day. I just have no idea if I'll muster up > > enough > > > > courage and time to actually finish it before L4D2 becomes too old > for > > > > people to still be interested. > > > > > > > > Chet, if you're reading this, do you have any opinion? > > > > > > > > - Alex > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Dec 12, 2013 at 9:20 PM, Sodabob <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > > > > > >> I hear you. I am always pretty gung ho for the type of map making > > that > > > >> Valve games offer. However, as I've gotten older, I have less time > > for > > > >> such things (such is the way of the world). But, more importantly, > I > > > make > > > >> maps and other such gaming "materials" mainly for the consumption of > > my > > > >> gaming group. And, sadly, by the time I really started being able > to > > > play > > > >> around with L4D2 mapping, our gaming group had moved on to other > games > > > (and > > > >> believe me, we stuck with L4D and L4D2 for a very long time). > > > >> > > > >> Perhaps the ideas I had been going for will be "brought back to > life" > > > >> (heh) with L4D3, or some other future Valve game... > > > >> > > > >> Bob. > > > >> > > > >> ________________________________________ > > > >> From: [email protected] [ > > > >> [email protected]] on behalf of Dan Jordan [ > > > >> [email protected]] > > > >> Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2013 11:17 AM > > > >> To: Left 4 Dead Modder List > > > >> Subject: Re: [L4Dmapper] [L4DMapper] So much work for a single > person > > > >> > > > >> I am not currently working on any L4D projects. > > > >> > > > >> As much as I enjoyed learning, designing and building Urban Flight, > > it's > > > >> frustrating how infrequently I see it played. While I do have other > > > ideas > > > >> for campaigns, I'm reluctant to sacrifice a significant portion of > my > > > >> non-working time to it. I feel the constant pull of wanting to do > > > >> Source-engine mapping (I've also considered making a Mann vs Machine > > > map), > > > >> so I'm sure I'll give in at some point, but that might not be until > > > Left 4 > > > >> Dead 3 or whatever. > > > >> > > > >> Meanwhile, I decided to jump off the deep end and make a full game > > using > > > >> the Unity engine. Really easy and fun for general game design, but > > > >> absolutely piss-poor for mapping. > > > >> > > > >> -- > > > >> *Daniel Jordan* > > > >> www.daniel-jordan.com > > > >> _______________________________________________ > > > >> L4Dmapper mailing list > > > >> [email protected] > > > >> https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/l4dmapper > > > >> _______________________________________________ > > > >> L4Dmapper mailing list > > > >> [email protected] > > > >> https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/l4dmapper > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > L4Dmapper mailing list > > > [email protected] > > > https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/l4dmapper > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > L4Dmapper mailing list > > [email protected] > > https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/l4dmapper > > > _______________________________________________ > L4Dmapper mailing list > [email protected] > https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/l4dmapper > _______________________________________________ L4Dmapper mailing list [email protected] https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/l4dmapper
