I agree that the php language and marketing is all very well done, and it had the success that we know. It would be a good model to follow.
Another important aspect for a project to be successful is the existence of a steering entity that can lead, take (concerted) decisions for the project, ensure that all efforts are well coordinated. All successful opensource projects seem to have such an entity: * Linus is steering Linux * Guido Van Rosum is steering Python * there is an Apache foundation, a KDE foundation, a Debian foundation etc. which all fulfill the role I am not too sure of who is behind free pascal and lazarus. PS: there is more to Python than google. I was seduced at first contact by the elegant syntax and clarity of code that one gets with Python On 8/15/05, L505 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > >Lazarus and Eclipse are compared as two IDEs, and why the most bloated > >one seem to be the most successful too. > > >In my view, this is due to a lack of marketing effort from the > >freepascal and lazarus project, and the "old school" image associated > >with Pascal in general. This is surely not helped by the web sites of > >both projects which are rather user unfriendly! > > Here are some thoughts of mine. > > Marketing > ------------- > Let's look at Python - it's not exactly marketed. Well, google founders just > happened to > "fall for" the language a bit in college/university while they were getting > their feet > wet. They could have fallen for PHP or ruby, and that would be "their > thing". They just > happen to fall for python. So now that google uses it, it gets it's name > around a bit. > But you watch the next few months.. google has now forced (sorry, > recommended I mean) > people to use python for their Sitemaps Beta, if people want to generate > sitemaps that > comply to google's standards. This will market python. > > Still, Python is not as popular as PHP at the moment. So how does PHP market > itself? > It's > -easy to download, > -it is easy to read the manual online. > -has "contributed notes" at the bottom of the PHP docs.. this is a huge > plus. > -people advertise themselves as a "PHP programmer" at the bottom of their > email. No one > does this with Pascal. > > Contributed notes > -------------------- > There is nothing like "contributed notes" to be seen with Pascal documents. > People have to > tediously download and compile the documents with fpdoc, then send a patch, > and then wait > 2-3 days for anything to happen. This needs to be changed. Compiling docs > are great for > the core of the documents, but additional comments need to be available from > the users > visiting the site in real time. I'm actually working on something called > LufDoc which > helps people contribute notes at the bottom of Pascal documentation.. > whether this is > accepted by the Pascal community is not my choice, just like acceptance of > Plugger is not > my choice, and acceptance for additional "contributed programs" section to > the FPC website > is not my choice. But the point is that we need to have more self serve on > the fly > documentation.. There are several times where I have seen a mistake in the > Pascal docs > that I want to fix immediately on site (or at least make a comment about it > on site). > > More Marketing > ------------------- > If you want to market Pascal don't expect the FPC devel team to do it.. > expect people like > business owners, developers, and website owners to do it. If people see > seven hundred > sites using CGI mailer scripts or forums written in Pascal that look cool, > they will say > "cool, was written in Pascal". If I go out with a brave heart and try to > inject Plugger > into a bunch of C++ applications, and people start seeing a bunch of C++ > applications > using a plug in system designed in Pascal, they will say "cool, the plug in > system was > designed in Pascal, and it even works in the C++ app now". Injecting the > Pascal name into > existing C++ apps is one of my ideas.. and it only takes one man to do (but > an army would > be better). Writing something like PasWiki only takes one man to do (but an > army would be > better) I still see so many of you using PHP based web sites to market > Pascal as a good > development system. This ain't gonna help Pascal - that's clash. Instead of > the PHP > extension we need to see something like PSP or PPP or PGI. > > Market Existing Programs > ---------------------------- > We also have to market existing applications out there that people don't > know were written > in Pascal. I market Total Commander in my emails sometimes (even though I'm > in no > affiliation) because I think it is a very strong application on the Windows > market. All > the users of total commander and any Pascal application should be posting > articles or > blogs on their websites saying "today I used an application written in > Pascal called Syn." > "Today I wrote a plug in for total commander, in Pascal. "You can write plug > in's for > total commander in C++ too, but obviously it's better if you know Pascal". > "Apache is > written in C so it must be cool" . "That Linux distribution has mainly > Pascal applications > and it's very fast compared to the Python based KDE distro.. interesting". > Create an army > of programmers working on a Linux distro that relies on plenty of Pascal > applications. > That is another idea of mine. > > People generally don't do this.. they keep it a secret. That needs to be > changed.. people > need to start writing articles about the "Pascal programs they used today". > On windows, if > you don't know that your tool was created with Pascal, you can get a tool > called Stud_Pe > and the upx unpacker. > > IDE For non-GUI devel > -------------------------- > If you ripped out all the visual components in Lazarus it would still be a > good IDE. > Lazarus needs to be marketed then, not just for creating visual GUI > applications.. but for > custom programs too. Eclipse seems to be known by some as a good tool, but > not necessarily > emphasis on visual development. With Delphi, there is far too much emphasis > on visual > development, and people knock it as a visual basic rip off. I'd go as far as > having a > button in Lazarus to turn off the component palette. I never use the > component palette > when making CGI apps, so I don't need it visible. If Delphi had features > that allowed you > to create applications that weren't so TForm based (but still with RAD > capabilities, like > inserting snippets of text, etc) then a lot more people wouldn't knock it as > a VB clone. > (Maybe you know I'm working on Plugger for this reason - to help RAD > capabilities for non > visual apps - and maybe you know I'm trying hard to make RAD development for > Pascal Server > Pages integrated right into Lazarus IDE through plug-ins.) > > Size issues > ------------ > Linux 1MB elfs may go unnoticed, but on Windows people are highly sensitive > in this area. > It is my advisory that if Lazarus wants to market itself, it has to solve > the 1mb problem > (it doesn't matter what you think ethical priorities are, I know for a fact > this is one of > the biggest turn offs, and even if it's not so important to you, it is > killing bringing > more people in to use lazarus. Looks and size matter here). People will > consider lazarus a > toy until 1mb exe's are solved. People may use lazarus for serious CGI > development, or > serious low level Pascal development, or socket programming, but not for MS > Windows GUI > development until the 1mb issue is solved. > > Application repository > ----------------------- > We need a Pascal repository for all the applications written in Pascal. We > have a > Contributed Unit repository, but not a program repository. The repository > needs to be self > serve, just like PHP contributed notes are, and just like the contributed > units section at > FPC website is. For example, where is it known that Seksi Commander exists? > It's not even > on the Lazarus website. > > Army of Pascal Users > ------------------------ > An "army of programmers" who agree on some general tactics, is needed. > Maybe we should > start an Army Of Pascal Users mailing list to discuss marketing and > tactics. > > _________________________________________________________________ > To unsubscribe: mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with > "unsubscribe" as the Subject > archives at http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailarchives > _________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe: mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe" as the Subject archives at http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailarchives
