Thanks for the reply Imre.
Imre Kaloz schreef op 2017-05-11 15:13:
Well hello there,
On 2017-05-11 12:53, Stijn Segers wrote:
<snip>
While, like most people, I'm happy progress has been made towards a
re-merge, there still seems quite some passive-agressive behaviour
present coming from certain people championing OpenWrt [1] - which,
from
where I stand, seemed one of the reasons for starting LEDE. Stifling
'free' speech (recently, even to the point of removing messages about
the pending re-merge on the OpenWrt forums) was another one; clearly,
that one is still very much present as well. One could say old habits
die hard, but it still feels like par for the course. What's up with
that? You want to remerge with the LEDE project, yet you cannot
tolerate
any discussion about the actual process on the OpenWrt forums? That's
some fine duplicity right there.
I guess our vocabularies differ quite a bit, given I see no
passive-aggressive statements there.
Well, the 'Our design might be from 2000 but LEDE's is from 95' does
come across as agressive, and the wink certainly doesn't make it any
lighter. But you're right, I might just be reading into it. Either way,
I have seen your mails right after the split as well, granted, your tone
is more constructive at the moment, which is great. But those mails were
full of anger, like a bull in a china shop, or a kid losing his toy.
I hope you just misunderstood the
ways some things have been worded, as your mail overemphasized certain
parts to twist the picture. I could very well say you're championing
yourself but somehow I don't see mails from you sent to any lists nor
me about questioning the forum moderators' behavior. Of course you
could have also stepped up and volunteer to be one, but either of
these would have required more energy then this mail.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not questioning if you're right, but you
should also be a bit more empathetic and understand a few things.
First of all, forum moderator rights have been given out as we didn't
have time to do it ourselves. This also means that after the first few
days we didn't spend our time on monitoring what people with moderator
rights are doing.
Understandably. But you also know that if people go berserk, that gives
the project as a whole a bad name. It only further deteriorated the
atmosphere. Some LEDE members hoped the OpenWrt forum would have been
more welcoming to the project in the short term, since LEDE members from
the onset made it clear that they did not intend to divide the
community; but that didn't work out. But like you say: we're just human
after all, and good intentions often aren't enough.
Second, and this might be harder to accept, but to a certain degree
when the first reply to anything is "OpenWrt is dead, go with LEDE",
your behavior might generate a hostile reply.
A statement a lot of people certainly fielded, but I'm not one to say
that. Yet, you cannot deny between LEDE and OpenWrt, since the split,
the latter has been showing a considerably weaker pulse.
Again, I'm not saying
this is right, I'm saying this is standard human behavior.
Back to my reply you love referring to: for me it seems you are the
one who can't tolerate the discussion and would like to silence
opinions (or how they can be expressed) you don't like. You might
prefer baroque, I'm free to like renaissance.
Pointing the finger the other way does not invalidate my observations in
any way, unfortunately.
I can't help but feel very uneasy about this. I'm not implying people
who stuck with OpenWrt don't want the best for the project and
community
(most do), but we all know LEDE was created to remedy exactly these
(and
other) shortcomings, which made OpenWrt languish to the point it had
come to a standstill. Not only did LEDE try to tackle these problems;
it
has succeeded beyond expectation. Developers are more accessible, you
can actually talk to people instead of getting your head bit off,
contributions are booming, and the atmosphere overall is friendly and
helpful. Discussion is encouraged, not repressed Soviet-style.
The reasons of the fork have been discussed quite a few times, and if
you think any project will be free of internal politics over a decade,
you might want to look into the history of FOSS projects in general :)
I might be a bit naive, indeed :).
As the rest of your mail is mostly FUD,
No doubt, just like the lethargy was all make believe, right? Two mails
in, but it won't be long before we get into a Godwin here, I reckon.
let's stick to facts if you consider replying.
I asked about the facts - the final tally on the most contentious issue
- and I'm not finding that fact. We both know that was the major issue
at hand, one of the few non-negotiable items for you (and maybe other
people). I see the vote go from a tie to 'we'll go with the OpenWrt
monniker again', yet I cannot find a trace of how that happened. Quite
possible I overlooked it.
As the saying goes, in any relationship, there are
three sides of the story: his side, her side and the truth.
Both sides have hard feelings about certain topics, but this
discussion started because we've decided to put those away. I can only
ask you to try the same instead of sending mails like this.
All I asked for was a link to a mailing list post containing the final
vote, which I cannot find. Since you're one of the pivotal members of
this process, can you provide it?
Cheers
Stijn
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