@Offray, you touch on what I feel is one of the biggest misunderstanding of emacs, and more specifically of modern emacs. Many are uncomfortable calling emacs an "editor" or an "IDE". Some jokingly call it an "operating system disguised as a text editor". Even the GNU emacs website's main text in giant font calls it "An extensible, customizable, free/libre text editor — *and more.*" Do you notice now "text editor" seems to lack emphasis, as though they just need to throw a noun in there, any noun will do.
What I would call it is "an extensible (text) buffer management framework." that just happens to be packaged with a text/code editor and a lot of other really cool tools. Perhaps the shinning example of why emacs is not an IDE/editor, but just happens to contain those tools, is exwm (or emacs X Window Manager) <https://github.com/ch11ng/exwm>. This "package", that *extends* emacs, turns emacs into a fully fledged tiling window manager; it literally turns emacs into your desktop and you can use it to open and manager all your GUI applications. What other "editor" or "IDE" do you know can do that? Keep in mind exwm is written 100% in elisp as it it's only dependency. As Offray mentioned, spacemacs <https://github.com/syl20bnr/spacemacs> is another one of these transformative "packages". This is how spacemacs describes itself, " Spacemacs is a new way to experience Emacs -- a sophisticated and polished set-up focused on ergonomics, mnemonics and consistency." And honestly I couldn't have done a better job, spacemacs turns emacs in something that is almost not recognizable as emacs. spacemacs mostly relies on "completion frameworks" to accomplish this transformation. "completion frameworks" in the context of emacs are tools that help you discover what you can do with emacs and also in a lot of cases try to predict what or where you'd like to do/see/go next based on where you've already been and what you've done. At the end of the day they help you be *way* more efficient than you could ever have been with vanilla emacs. The two most popular completion frames are helm <https://github.com/emacs-helm/helm> and ivy <https://github.com/abo-abo/swiper>. I personally use emacs+ivy without spacemacs. I simply couldn't imagine emacs without ivy. Whatever task you could think of, helm/ivy will let you do it faster. My point is to question your understanding of *what* emacs *is*. It's not really in competition with vscode to begin with, though if you wanted to compare their code editing capabilities you could. emacs is almost in a class of it's own, though I would say that Leo has snuggled in next to emacs in that regards. I think LeoInteg is great anecdotal proof that Leo is not merely an "IDE" or an "Editor" but instead is set of tools built for managing a DAG of text nodes that just happens to be used often for editing code. On Friday, July 24, 2020 at 11:37:22 AM UTC-4 [email protected] wrote: > Agreed. VS code is a pretty good bridge for Leo to the masses (what some > proposed saw on Jupyter but finally after some exploration it was not). > Despite of that niche tools are important too (Leo over native Python is a > probe of that). Now that we are exploring the path to the masses, telling > that niche tools are lame seems kind of the "new rich" approach talking bad > about the poor (where the rich once belonged). > > The more I use Spacemacs, the more I found appeal on it that I have not > found in Leo (and viceversa, the more I understand Leo value propossals, > despite of my minimal to null Leo usage this days). I hope at some point to > incorporate the advantage of the tools I know and have used in my own > outliner [1], which needs a lot of works, but also showcases possibilities > not found on any of the those I have used so far, nor on VS Code. They > still will have an appeal to the populations those tools congregate around > and I will try to point my criticism towards particular (anti)features (ie > MS data collection or its monopolic practices) instead of a general critic > towards a "lame" tool or way of using it. > > As digital artisans we take pride on our tools so open but specific > criticism about them is better, acknowledging our bias and finding value > where is due. > > [1] https://mutabit.com/grafoscopio/en.html > > Cheers, > > Offray > > > On 24/07/20 10:17 a. m., [email protected] wrote: > > *TLDR; If LeoInteg is what brings Leo to the masses, more power to you and > Felix and everyone else who gets to experience the wonder of Leo. But lets > keep things factual and objective and keep the editor age-discrimination to > a minimum, that's not why we're here.* > > These two videos are not a good comparison. They show two different > features, tree-based editing vs settings. First off, vscode's settings > system is pretty slick, but emacs has had *literally the exact same > feature* since at least the year 2000 > <https://ftp.gnu.org/old-gnu/Manuals/emacs-20.7/html_node/emacs_437.html> (I > didn't look farther back than that); it's called *customize-apropos*. So > let's not pat them on the back for re-implementing a 20+ year-old feature > from emacs and then provide it as a reason why emacs is "on the way out". > In addition, org-mode will never be as good at tree/graph based editing as > Leo is, but that is because that is specifically what Leo is best at. > Tangling in emacs is pretty clunky, but It's still better than almost > everything else which has no tree-based editing. If you want to organize > code as trees/graphs you have *very few* options, org-mode happens to be > one of them. > > The soothsayers have been predicting emacs' death for a while now. Based > on my investigations, emacs was never popular to begin with. I've heard it > was once "far more popular" than it is now, but it never reach the > popularity of a Borland or Microsoft product, or Eclipse. It never made its > way out of the shadows. But everyone here (in the shadows) know *how > little that means. * > > Emacs is niche. It appeals to "configuration nuts" who, once they get a > taste for how much it can do out of the box and how much it can be > configured tend to get hooked on it. I think Leo appeals to a similar > audience. Each have a unique set of features that some find too good to > pass up for more popular editors. > > I work in a bandwidth constrained environment where usually the only > tolerable editors are text only through ssh in a terminal. vim and emacs > fall into that category, emacs having way more features. emacs, to this > day, has most features available in terminal mode. This gives me a snappy, > feature-filled editor that is available on most systems. Few full-featured > editor-IDEs maintain terminal support. Vscode never will. > > I also share some of the caution that others here have expressed about > vscode's affiliation with Microsoft. Modern corporate capitalism hasn't > proven itself to be a friend of humanity. > > On Friday, July 24, 2020 at 7:47:58 AM UTC-4 Edward K. Ream wrote: > >> Imo, this video <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h3PJjP0nE98&t=233s> >> shows why some many people are excited about vs code. >> >> The video demonstrates the Prettier plugin, and along the way demos vs >> code's superb configuration system. There is *so* much to like about vs >> code! >> >> In contrast, this video >> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQe1ul51RM0>laboriously >> shows how to Leonize a file using emacs org mode. It's pretty lame :-) Imo, >> emacs is on it's way out, and leoInteg will speed it along it's way :-) >> >> Edward >> > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "leo-editor" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/leo-editor/86a4947e-f98c-4615-a261-4fca949e032an%40googlegroups.com > > <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/leo-editor/86a4947e-f98c-4615-a261-4fca949e032an%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> > . > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "leo-editor" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/leo-editor/e9fe8c5b-c124-4627-ac21-9ed953917629n%40googlegroups.com.
