On Jul 6, 2007, at 6:06 PM, ICMP Request wrote:
> (This message can be very large but I really ask for you to, if
> possible, take some of your time to read it as I think it's worth
> reading)
>
> Dear LFS, BLFS, CLFS, ALFS and related projects community members and
> Staff/Developers,
>
> For many months, I believe that more than one year, I've been using
> LFS
> and BLFS. Unfortunately, I was not able to use it directly as
> sometimes
> I've got into health problems, net connection problems, available time
> and other miscellaneous problems that unfortunately made me to stay
> away
> from the LFS project for some months, but I always backed, because it
> was never related to an issue or a problem I could have with LFS book,
> community nor any members or developers. Frequenting the
> irc.linuxfromscratch.org IRC Server and its channels, mainly
> #lfs-support until this morning as the alias icmp.request and in the
> past as the alias net_priest, it was always a very good place where I
> could not only ask questions but also help other members asking
> questions (because although I still have a limited knowledge about
> LFS I
> could try to help people who didn't have any); but of course it was
> also
> a place where I could chat and interact with people, meeting new
> friends, etc.
>
> Many were the occasions that I've spent a such great time with
> members,
> giving help, receiving help, and also having a lot of fun which
> made me
> and other people laugh very much; a perfect balance of a place
> where you
> don't go only to find and give help, but also to meet new people and
> have some fun, of course without deviating of the main purpose that is
> to support members who needs help. I really don't know if it's so
> right
> to use the #lfs-support channel for off-topic conversations, that
> would
> be very better to use the #lfs one but historically not even new
> members
> but also all the moderators like to talk about off-topic things on
> #lfs-support , as the #lfs channel is mainly desert. At first I
> tried to
> talk off-topic subjects like "hello, how are you guys?" on #lfs
> channel
> but when I that saw everyone, including all the moderators, were using
> #lfs-support channel not only for support but also for general chat I
> gave up this idea. Not that I think it's wrong using #lfs-support for
> general chat too, as the IRC LFS Community seems very small so the
> channel activity is few enough for that, but if all the members and
> moderators adopt this idea I assumed I could also do that without
> having
> to worry about being 100% on-topic on #lfs-support .
>
> Before telling what happened, I first would like to say I NEVER
> thought
> that anyone there should have the obligation to answer or help me with
> any issue, being lfs/blfs or not. No one was being paid for that.
> For me
> it's always like an exchange. I found the book, I read it and I was
> really surprised about all the work you made and all the efforts
> you are
> making to keep, at least LFS and BLFS books (the other projects
> books I
> don't know because I did not see them, but I don't think they are
> different) highly updated, at least for dev versions. I think that
> almost every week and in many cases more than once in the week you
> update a new svn version of the book, showing that LFS and BLFS
> developers worked hard since the beginning and they keep working hard
> every day. So it was natural my wish to also give my contribution
> by at
> least trying to help other members in the past days even with my still
> limited knowledge, or at least being part of the LFS channels,
> thinking
> "wow these guys are working REALLY hard and they deserve my support
> and
> my recognition for this" . So I was there on the LFS IRC not with the
> main objective of ask help, of course it too, but to either try to
> support the project in any way by helping new members or at least
> showing the IRC developers "hey i'm here on your channel, and I'm
> active, I support you, you can count with me if and when you need!"
>
> Many great staff/moderators I found these days and even in the past
> days
> some months ago when I used to go there as net_priest on the channel,
> like Joe, TheEpitome, a guy who his nick I don't remember but which
> starts with the capital letter "A", Ratrophy, and many others. They
> were
> really not only helping me but also making my day better and I hope I
> was doing the same (at least was my wish from the deep of my heart in
> gratitude for every help I received from them). Well, until this
> morning, 2007-07-06, maybe 2-3AM GMT where the last one, Ratrophy, has
> banned me from the #lfs-support channel, an attitude which left me
> in a
> shock state for the next few minutes, something like "why? what did I
> do? I don't believe it!". Ratrophy was always a very active and
> contributing moderator, and because of this, I think he was the
> moderator that I most had consideration until now. Many were the times
> that he helped me or at least tried to help and many was my thanks for
> him because of this. But this attitude has really made me
> disbelieve not
> only on him but consequently on the whole LFS community.
>
> His reason was simple: I was supposedly asking help for many things
> that
> were not related to LFS/BLFS projects, including a keyboard daemon
> which
> was the reason he banned me. Well, here are my points:
>
> - First of all, I didn't even realize that I was asking so much
> help for
> things don't related to LFS/BLFS, it was so natural that I really
> didn't
> realize.
> - Second, I was NOT asking for his help about this keyboard daemon
> program. I believe you should have the channel logs, you can see it
> clearly and of course tell me if I am wrong but I was just commenting
> about the program, maybe just to see Ratrophy and other members
> opinions
> about it. I NEVER said "I would like you to help me with that" or "I
> think you should have this program on LFS/BLFS, why don't you have
> it?"
> or anything like this, I was just commenting about a program that I
> thought it was curious and interesting at least to share with the
> people
> to see what they think about it. Maybe a little LFS off-topic? Sure it
> could be, but as I said, #lfs-support was historically an off-topic
> chat
> and I never thought it would be a problem.
> - Third, even if I was did asking for help about this program or even
> any LFS-related program, I NEVER thought that helping me was their
> obligation. Of course I complained a little before one time (and
> when I
> said one, it was really just ONE) telling I would like only to listen
> something even if like "oh sh*t I don't know" but I repeat now I never
> said it was their obligation. They were on the channel for
> volunteering
> helping the others, just as I was trying to be after realizing the
> hard
> work you all are doing and after receiving so much help on the past.
>
> - Forth, and this was the most SERIOUS one: No one, which includes
> Ratrophy, has EVER told me to stop off-topic or non-lfs-related
> chat if
> I was doing it that much and not realizing that. I mean, why didn't he
> just told me to stop doing that and explained me the situation before
> banning me directly? It didn't even need to be on chat he could have
> PMed me or, as he doesn't like PMs, just told me "please join the chat
> #icmp_ratrophy_discussion I need to talk to you privately". No, he
> just
> told me to look to the topic, and at the time I didn't realize what he
> meant, then I've put an "?" and then he just banned me. I mean, was it
> really necessary? Why on the f***en hell didn't he just talked to
> me and
> told this issue, which no one EVER did? And you can see the proof
> on the
> logs, I was NEVER warned that I was talking so much off-topic sh*t and
> was NEVER asked to stop. If I did and disrespected that, of course he
> could have a good reason to ban me, as he would have asked me to stop
> and I didn't. But not even that happened! I mean, if you have a gun
> you
> will always shoot first and then ask??? This is insane, and even
> childish and I thought I was participating on a very mature community.
>
> I mean, of course if Ratrophy or anyone have told me that I was
> talking
> so much about off-topic programs (and they thought I was also asking
> help for them, when I was just MENTIONING them, again CHECK the IRC
> LOG), I personally would not agree with that but I would know how to
> RESPECT and stop doing that, even against my wish. But no one told me
> that, I was not able to defend myself, not even to say "ok I will stop
> if I am annoying you with that" and then I just got a +b on my face
> from
> the person I had most respect and consideration in all the channel!
>
> After that I talked to Ratrophy on #lfs channel and he removed the
> ban,
> and asked me to rejoin, but frankly, after this episode I don't ave
> any
> wish to be part of LFS IRC anymore. I an too much disappointed for
> that.
> If you want, leave your opinions, but for me a ban without even trying
> to talk to me first and tell the issue, was really not necessary, a
> power abuse, just to show "hey I'm a moderator I can ban you I'm
> good!".
> Childish!
>
> And the worst part: I've NEVER saw anyone being banned on #lfs-
> support .
> The first thing I thought "what the hell did I do wrong???" It was
> something like that (not exactly but something like this):
>
> Ratrophy: Look at your last question, and read the topic.
> icmp.request: ? *
> * This '?' meant: sorry I don't know what you are talking about I'm
> not
> understanding.
> Ratrophy: Well, I think you didn't get it...
> Ratrophy bans icmp.request
>
> Frankly, sorry for the words I will use but what the f**k was
> that??? I
> mean, couldn't he have tried to just explain "I think you are talking
> too much non-related LFS stuff, maybe you could stop...?" Sure I would
> do! I am NOT a teenager and I decided to not be a teenager anymore
> since
> 4-5 years ago. And since then, I was never banned by any community I
> made part of, all the ones I had any issue with its philosophy I left
> myself no one had to ban me, by the simple reason I'm not a f***en
> stupid bastard who wants to ruin the others fun. The only thing I
> could
> do if Ratrophy would have proceed like this, asking me to stop,
> would be
> have taken this subject ahead, about what should be considered on-
> topic
> and off-topic and maybe suggest people to participate more of the #lfs
> channel. I would not complain about this attitude, I would have
> respected and obeyed it. IF not, then a +b would be justified.
>
> But not, he decided to directly ban me, and later talk to me about the
> issue, a completely childish, disrespectful, inhuman, POWER ABUSIVE
> and
> really forgive me for what I will tell now but stupid action. Ratrophy
> has given a REALLY BAD image about LFS Staff. When he did it, I was so
> shocked that in the first minutes after the ban I couldn't even
> believe
> it, I was literally FROZEN ahead of my computer because I NEVER
> expected
> this action from an LFS moderator, specially a so participative one as
> Ratrophy.
>
> All that I can ask now is to the moderators and staff members of
> the LFS
> Community check the logs and take this issue ahead. If you don't do
> this, it can happen again and more people may leave LFS as I'm just
> about to do. The main reason I was on LFS IRC until now was not to
> receive general help, as for that there are general linux channels,
> neither receive lfs specific help as I am already experience very few
> problems on LFS install and most of them I am being able to solve
> on my
> own, so I would just be using lfs mail list to report very few
> problems
> and that's all. The main reason I was on LFS IRC until now was to show
> my support to LFS and be part of a community that I was loving to be
> part of.
>
>
> Now for some final considerations about the text I've made:
>
> - I could have just retired myself totally from LFS project and
> gone to
> Gentoo, without writing anything. And I'm NOT doing this as a
> vengeance
> act about what Ratrophy has done. I just, even not knowing the main
> participants of the LFS book, that you work really hard, you helped
> really much and you at least deserved to know if something wrong is
> going on. Until know at least I believed you deserved as much
> support as
> possible, by knowing what is going on and why a so grateful and
> respectful member is about to leave. I could have just said "It's
> not my
> business anymore, f**k off them all" and not waste 2h of my time
> writing
> this text, but I feel I would be so unfair to people who work hard
> do much.
>
> - This is NOT a text encouraging normal members to leave. Besides that
> episode LFS is an AMAZING project of people who, as I already said
> many
> and many times in this text, work really hard. Of course I'm about to
> leave but somethings make me have enough faith that LFS Staff will at
> least investigate this.
>
> - I am NOT asking punishment to Ratrophy even because who am I, a
> strange, a newcomer, against someone who must be already many years on
> LFS. Of course I would not have any chance. But even if I had I
> think he
> contributes enough for LFS and helps enough other members for just
> receiving a lecture, like "dude look what you just did...don't do this
> anymore..." .
>
> - I am NOT trying to split the staff and make staff members ones
> against
> others. That would be TERRIBLE for a such amazing project!
>
> - This discussion is mainly NOT about what can be off-topic or not in
> #lfs-support channel like as I told you if I would be told to stop
> talking this things I would have stopped. Then perhaps I would lead
> into
> a discussion about this but without complaining about no one; the
> opposite, with the objective to make LFS IRC more clean and organized
> with more specific and clear rules which would benefit the whole LFS
> community and would not hurt not even 1% of the respect and the
> consideration that I had with Ratrophy.
>
> - The main objective of this text is simple: I was banned without
> being
> warned before to stop the behavior that made me being banned; was
> "shoot
> first and talk later"; I was always respectful and supportive and
> frankly I felt myself so much humiliated about this, because as I told
> you, I'm an adult and always acted like an adult on LFS and not a
> stupid
> teenager who just want to make other people's life miserable. For the
> opposite, my main objective was always to make the life of the
> people of
> the channel better as a form of gratitude for all the help and
> knowledge
> I received all this time from LFS.
>
> - Normal members are discouraged to discuss about it, as it could be
> split into an endless discussion about people defending Ratrophy and
> people accusing him and my objective is very far from causing
> conflicts
> between the members of a project that I have so much admiration and
> respect for.
>
> - This text is mainly directed to the STAFF. If you think there
> will be
> staff members who will not read this because they do not make part of
> the chat mailing list, please forward it to the proper persons/mailing
> lists.
>
> - I just want it to be investigated, nothing else. Please CHECK the
> logs
> and review Ratrophy attitude and just tell if it was fair and correct.
> If Staff opinion is that it was, I'm leaving permanently LFS community
> and going to the Gentoo one, not mad or angry with the staff members
> (exception for Ratrophy of course) but really, deeply sad by this
> occurrence but leaving my thanks for all the great work you made on
> the
> book and all the help I received, that I was beginning to want to give
> it back not only by helping newbie members but on the future
> beginning a
> dev-tester and a helping contributor for any of the projects, but
> unfortunately I won't be able to anymore.
>
> I really thank and appreciate anyone who read this text until here,
>
> Estevão Becker (icmp.request / net_priest)
>
> --
> ICMP Request - Don't forget to call me when you ping!
>
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Hello Estevão,
It was a hasty decision on my part. Looking forward to your help. I
am sorry and am fully responsible for my lack of tact within the last
24 hours.
Sincerely,
William
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