everyone does know this guy's crazy, right? after all, he's just wrote a giant email instead of just bitching at the ops :)
On 7/8/07, ICMP Request <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Apologizes accepted. Although I'm not in the mood to be back to IRC > right now, I will keep being part of *LFS projects through the mailing > lists. > > Regards, > > ICMP Request - Don't forget to call me when you ping! > > Mail/MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > x86 Intel Prescott 32-bit platform > > > William Harrington wrote: > > On Jul 6, 2007, at 6:06 PM, ICMP Request wrote: > > > >> (This message can be very large but I really ask for you to, if > >> possible, take some of your time to read it as I think it's worth > >> reading) > >> > >> Dear LFS, BLFS, CLFS, ALFS and related projects community members and > >> Staff/Developers, > >> > >> For many months, I believe that more than one year, I've been using > >> LFS > >> and BLFS. Unfortunately, I was not able to use it directly as > >> sometimes > >> I've got into health problems, net connection problems, available time > >> and other miscellaneous problems that unfortunately made me to stay > >> away > >> from the LFS project for some months, but I always backed, because it > >> was never related to an issue or a problem I could have with LFS book, > >> community nor any members or developers. Frequenting the > >> irc.linuxfromscratch.org IRC Server and its channels, mainly > >> #lfs-support until this morning as the alias icmp.request and in the > >> past as the alias net_priest, it was always a very good place where I > >> could not only ask questions but also help other members asking > >> questions (because although I still have a limited knowledge about > >> LFS I > >> could try to help people who didn't have any); but of course it was > >> also > >> a place where I could chat and interact with people, meeting new > >> friends, etc. > >> > >> Many were the occasions that I've spent a such great time with > >> members, > >> giving help, receiving help, and also having a lot of fun which > >> made me > >> and other people laugh very much; a perfect balance of a place > >> where you > >> don't go only to find and give help, but also to meet new people and > >> have some fun, of course without deviating of the main purpose that is > >> to support members who needs help. I really don't know if it's so > >> right > >> to use the #lfs-support channel for off-topic conversations, that > >> would > >> be very better to use the #lfs one but historically not even new > >> members > >> but also all the moderators like to talk about off-topic things on > >> #lfs-support , as the #lfs channel is mainly desert. At first I > >> tried to > >> talk off-topic subjects like "hello, how are you guys?" on #lfs > >> channel > >> but when I that saw everyone, including all the moderators, were using > >> #lfs-support channel not only for support but also for general chat I > >> gave up this idea. Not that I think it's wrong using #lfs-support for > >> general chat too, as the IRC LFS Community seems very small so the > >> channel activity is few enough for that, but if all the members and > >> moderators adopt this idea I assumed I could also do that without > >> having > >> to worry about being 100% on-topic on #lfs-support . > >> > >> Before telling what happened, I first would like to say I NEVER > >> thought > >> that anyone there should have the obligation to answer or help me with > >> any issue, being lfs/blfs or not. No one was being paid for that. > >> For me > >> it's always like an exchange. I found the book, I read it and I was > >> really surprised about all the work you made and all the efforts > >> you are > >> making to keep, at least LFS and BLFS books (the other projects > >> books I > >> don't know because I did not see them, but I don't think they are > >> different) highly updated, at least for dev versions. I think that > >> almost every week and in many cases more than once in the week you > >> update a new svn version of the book, showing that LFS and BLFS > >> developers worked hard since the beginning and they keep working hard > >> every day. So it was natural my wish to also give my contribution > >> by at > >> least trying to help other members in the past days even with my still > >> limited knowledge, or at least being part of the LFS channels, > >> thinking > >> "wow these guys are working REALLY hard and they deserve my support > >> and > >> my recognition for this" . So I was there on the LFS IRC not with the > >> main objective of ask help, of course it too, but to either try to > >> support the project in any way by helping new members or at least > >> showing the IRC developers "hey i'm here on your channel, and I'm > >> active, I support you, you can count with me if and when you need!" > >> > >> Many great staff/moderators I found these days and even in the past > >> days > >> some months ago when I used to go there as net_priest on the channel, > >> like Joe, TheEpitome, a guy who his nick I don't remember but which > >> starts with the capital letter "A", Ratrophy, and many others. They > >> were > >> really not only helping me but also making my day better and I hope I > >> was doing the same (at least was my wish from the deep of my heart in > >> gratitude for every help I received from them). Well, until this > >> morning, 2007-07-06, maybe 2-3AM GMT where the last one, Ratrophy, has > >> banned me from the #lfs-support channel, an attitude which left me > >> in a > >> shock state for the next few minutes, something like "why? what did I > >> do? I don't believe it!". Ratrophy was always a very active and > >> contributing moderator, and because of this, I think he was the > >> moderator that I most had consideration until now. Many were the times > >> that he helped me or at least tried to help and many was my thanks for > >> him because of this. But this attitude has really made me > >> disbelieve not > >> only on him but consequently on the whole LFS community. > >> > >> His reason was simple: I was supposedly asking help for many things > >> that > >> were not related to LFS/BLFS projects, including a keyboard daemon > >> which > >> was the reason he banned me. Well, here are my points: > >> > >> - First of all, I didn't even realize that I was asking so much > >> help for > >> things don't related to LFS/BLFS, it was so natural that I really > >> didn't > >> realize. > >> - Second, I was NOT asking for his help about this keyboard daemon > >> program. I believe you should have the channel logs, you can see it > >> clearly and of course tell me if I am wrong but I was just commenting > >> about the program, maybe just to see Ratrophy and other members > >> opinions > >> about it. I NEVER said "I would like you to help me with that" or "I > >> think you should have this program on LFS/BLFS, why don't you have > >> it?" > >> or anything like this, I was just commenting about a program that I > >> thought it was curious and interesting at least to share with the > >> people > >> to see what they think about it. Maybe a little LFS off-topic? Sure it > >> could be, but as I said, #lfs-support was historically an off-topic > >> chat > >> and I never thought it would be a problem. > >> - Third, even if I was did asking for help about this program or even > >> any LFS-related program, I NEVER thought that helping me was their > >> obligation. Of course I complained a little before one time (and > >> when I > >> said one, it was really just ONE) telling I would like only to listen > >> something even if like "oh sh*t I don't know" but I repeat now I never > >> said it was their obligation. They were on the channel for > >> volunteering > >> helping the others, just as I was trying to be after realizing the > >> hard > >> work you all are doing and after receiving so much help on the past. > >> > >> - Forth, and this was the most SERIOUS one: No one, which includes > >> Ratrophy, has EVER told me to stop off-topic or non-lfs-related > >> chat if > >> I was doing it that much and not realizing that. I mean, why didn't he > >> just told me to stop doing that and explained me the situation before > >> banning me directly? It didn't even need to be on chat he could have > >> PMed me or, as he doesn't like PMs, just told me "please join the chat > >> #icmp_ratrophy_discussion I need to talk to you privately". No, he > >> just > >> told me to look to the topic, and at the time I didn't realize what he > >> meant, then I've put an "?" and then he just banned me. I mean, was it > >> really necessary? Why on the f***en hell didn't he just talked to > >> me and > >> told this issue, which no one EVER did? And you can see the proof > >> on the > >> logs, I was NEVER warned that I was talking so much off-topic sh*t and > >> was NEVER asked to stop. If I did and disrespected that, of course he > >> could have a good reason to ban me, as he would have asked me to stop > >> and I didn't. But not even that happened! I mean, if you have a gun > >> you > >> will always shoot first and then ask??? This is insane, and even > >> childish and I thought I was participating on a very mature community. > >> > >> I mean, of course if Ratrophy or anyone have told me that I was > >> talking > >> so much about off-topic programs (and they thought I was also asking > >> help for them, when I was just MENTIONING them, again CHECK the IRC > >> LOG), I personally would not agree with that but I would know how to > >> RESPECT and stop doing that, even against my wish. But no one told me > >> that, I was not able to defend myself, not even to say "ok I will stop > >> if I am annoying you with that" and then I just got a +b on my face > >> from > >> the person I had most respect and consideration in all the channel! > >> > >> After that I talked to Ratrophy on #lfs channel and he removed the > >> ban, > >> and asked me to rejoin, but frankly, after this episode I don't ave > >> any > >> wish to be part of LFS IRC anymore. I an too much disappointed for > >> that. > >> If you want, leave your opinions, but for me a ban without even trying > >> to talk to me first and tell the issue, was really not necessary, a > >> power abuse, just to show "hey I'm a moderator I can ban you I'm > >> good!". > >> Childish! > >> > >> And the worst part: I've NEVER saw anyone being banned on #lfs- > >> support . > >> The first thing I thought "what the hell did I do wrong???" It was > >> something like that (not exactly but something like this): > >> > >> Ratrophy: Look at your last question, and read the topic. > >> icmp.request: ? * > >> * This '?' meant: sorry I don't know what you are talking about I'm > >> not > >> understanding. > >> Ratrophy: Well, I think you didn't get it... > >> Ratrophy bans icmp.request > >> > >> Frankly, sorry for the words I will use but what the f**k was > >> that??? I > >> mean, couldn't he have tried to just explain "I think you are talking > >> too much non-related LFS stuff, maybe you could stop...?" Sure I would > >> do! I am NOT a teenager and I decided to not be a teenager anymore > >> since > >> 4-5 years ago. And since then, I was never banned by any community I > >> made part of, all the ones I had any issue with its philosophy I left > >> myself no one had to ban me, by the simple reason I'm not a f***en > >> stupid bastard who wants to ruin the others fun. The only thing I > >> could > >> do if Ratrophy would have proceed like this, asking me to stop, > >> would be > >> have taken this subject ahead, about what should be considered on- > >> topic > >> and off-topic and maybe suggest people to participate more of the #lfs > >> channel. I would not complain about this attitude, I would have > >> respected and obeyed it. IF not, then a +b would be justified. > >> > >> But not, he decided to directly ban me, and later talk to me about the > >> issue, a completely childish, disrespectful, inhuman, POWER ABUSIVE > >> and > >> really forgive me for what I will tell now but stupid action. Ratrophy > >> has given a REALLY BAD image about LFS Staff. When he did it, I was so > >> shocked that in the first minutes after the ban I couldn't even > >> believe > >> it, I was literally FROZEN ahead of my computer because I NEVER > >> expected > >> this action from an LFS moderator, specially a so participative one as > >> Ratrophy. > >> > >> All that I can ask now is to the moderators and staff members of > >> the LFS > >> Community check the logs and take this issue ahead. If you don't do > >> this, it can happen again and more people may leave LFS as I'm just > >> about to do. The main reason I was on LFS IRC until now was not to > >> receive general help, as for that there are general linux channels, > >> neither receive lfs specific help as I am already experience very few > >> problems on LFS install and most of them I am being able to solve > >> on my > >> own, so I would just be using lfs mail list to report very few > >> problems > >> and that's all. The main reason I was on LFS IRC until now was to show > >> my support to LFS and be part of a community that I was loving to be > >> part of. > >> > >> > >> Now for some final considerations about the text I've made: > >> > >> - I could have just retired myself totally from LFS project and > >> gone to > >> Gentoo, without writing anything. And I'm NOT doing this as a > >> vengeance > >> act about what Ratrophy has done. I just, even not knowing the main > >> participants of the LFS book, that you work really hard, you helped > >> really much and you at least deserved to know if something wrong is > >> going on. Until know at least I believed you deserved as much > >> support as > >> possible, by knowing what is going on and why a so grateful and > >> respectful member is about to leave. I could have just said "It's > >> not my > >> business anymore, f**k off them all" and not waste 2h of my time > >> writing > >> this text, but I feel I would be so unfair to people who work hard > >> do much. > >> > >> - This is NOT a text encouraging normal members to leave. Besides that > >> episode LFS is an AMAZING project of people who, as I already said > >> many > >> and many times in this text, work really hard. Of course I'm about to > >> leave but somethings make me have enough faith that LFS Staff will at > >> least investigate this. > >> > >> - I am NOT asking punishment to Ratrophy even because who am I, a > >> strange, a newcomer, against someone who must be already many years on > >> LFS. Of course I would not have any chance. But even if I had I > >> think he > >> contributes enough for LFS and helps enough other members for just > >> receiving a lecture, like "dude look what you just did...don't do this > >> anymore..." . > >> > >> - I am NOT trying to split the staff and make staff members ones > >> against > >> others. That would be TERRIBLE for a such amazing project! > >> > >> - This discussion is mainly NOT about what can be off-topic or not in > >> #lfs-support channel like as I told you if I would be told to stop > >> talking this things I would have stopped. Then perhaps I would lead > >> into > >> a discussion about this but without complaining about no one; the > >> opposite, with the objective to make LFS IRC more clean and organized > >> with more specific and clear rules which would benefit the whole LFS > >> community and would not hurt not even 1% of the respect and the > >> consideration that I had with Ratrophy. > >> > >> - The main objective of this text is simple: I was banned without > >> being > >> warned before to stop the behavior that made me being banned; was > >> "shoot > >> first and talk later"; I was always respectful and supportive and > >> frankly I felt myself so much humiliated about this, because as I told > >> you, I'm an adult and always acted like an adult on LFS and not a > >> stupid > >> teenager who just want to make other people's life miserable. For the > >> opposite, my main objective was always to make the life of the > >> people of > >> the channel better as a form of gratitude for all the help and > >> knowledge > >> I received all this time from LFS. > >> > >> - Normal members are discouraged to discuss about it, as it could be > >> split into an endless discussion about people defending Ratrophy and > >> people accusing him and my objective is very far from causing > >> conflicts > >> between the members of a project that I have so much admiration and > >> respect for. > >> > >> - This text is mainly directed to the STAFF. If you think there > >> will be > >> staff members who will not read this because they do not make part of > >> the chat mailing list, please forward it to the proper persons/mailing > >> lists. > >> > >> - I just want it to be investigated, nothing else. Please CHECK the > >> logs > >> and review Ratrophy attitude and just tell if it was fair and correct. > >> If Staff opinion is that it was, I'm leaving permanently LFS community > >> and going to the Gentoo one, not mad or angry with the staff members > >> (exception for Ratrophy of course) but really, deeply sad by this > >> occurrence but leaving my thanks for all the great work you made on > >> the > >> book and all the help I received, that I was beginning to want to give > >> it back not only by helping newbie members but on the future > >> beginning a > >> dev-tester and a helping contributor for any of the projects, but > >> unfortunately I won't be able to anymore. > >> > >> I really thank and appreciate anyone who read this text until here, > >> > >> Estevão Becker (icmp.request / net_priest) > >> > >> -- > >> ICMP Request - Don't forget to call me when you ping! > >> > >> -- > >> http://linuxfromscratch.org/mailman/listinfo/lfs-chat > >> FAQ: http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/faq/ > >> Unsubscribe: See the above information page > > > > Hello Estevão, > > > > It was a hasty decision on my part. Looking forward to your help. I > > am sorry and am fully responsible for my lack of tact within the last > > 24 hours. > > > > Sincerely, > > > > William > -- > http://linuxfromscratch.org/mailman/listinfo/lfs-chat > FAQ: http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/faq/ > Unsubscribe: See the above information page > -- Processing Key: 09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0 -- http://linuxfromscratch.org/mailman/listinfo/lfs-chat FAQ: http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/faq/ Unsubscribe: See the above information page
