Apologizes accepted. Although I'm not in the mood to be back to IRC right now, I will keep being part of *LFS projects through the mailing lists.
Regards, ICMP Request - Don't forget to call me when you ping! Mail/MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED] x86 Intel Prescott 32-bit platform William Harrington wrote: > On Jul 6, 2007, at 6:06 PM, ICMP Request wrote: > >> (This message can be very large but I really ask for you to, if >> possible, take some of your time to read it as I think it's worth >> reading) >> >> Dear LFS, BLFS, CLFS, ALFS and related projects community members and >> Staff/Developers, >> >> For many months, I believe that more than one year, I've been using >> LFS >> and BLFS. Unfortunately, I was not able to use it directly as >> sometimes >> I've got into health problems, net connection problems, available time >> and other miscellaneous problems that unfortunately made me to stay >> away >> from the LFS project for some months, but I always backed, because it >> was never related to an issue or a problem I could have with LFS book, >> community nor any members or developers. Frequenting the >> irc.linuxfromscratch.org IRC Server and its channels, mainly >> #lfs-support until this morning as the alias icmp.request and in the >> past as the alias net_priest, it was always a very good place where I >> could not only ask questions but also help other members asking >> questions (because although I still have a limited knowledge about >> LFS I >> could try to help people who didn't have any); but of course it was >> also >> a place where I could chat and interact with people, meeting new >> friends, etc. >> >> Many were the occasions that I've spent a such great time with >> members, >> giving help, receiving help, and also having a lot of fun which >> made me >> and other people laugh very much; a perfect balance of a place >> where you >> don't go only to find and give help, but also to meet new people and >> have some fun, of course without deviating of the main purpose that is >> to support members who needs help. I really don't know if it's so >> right >> to use the #lfs-support channel for off-topic conversations, that >> would >> be very better to use the #lfs one but historically not even new >> members >> but also all the moderators like to talk about off-topic things on >> #lfs-support , as the #lfs channel is mainly desert. At first I >> tried to >> talk off-topic subjects like "hello, how are you guys?" on #lfs >> channel >> but when I that saw everyone, including all the moderators, were using >> #lfs-support channel not only for support but also for general chat I >> gave up this idea. Not that I think it's wrong using #lfs-support for >> general chat too, as the IRC LFS Community seems very small so the >> channel activity is few enough for that, but if all the members and >> moderators adopt this idea I assumed I could also do that without >> having >> to worry about being 100% on-topic on #lfs-support . >> >> Before telling what happened, I first would like to say I NEVER >> thought >> that anyone there should have the obligation to answer or help me with >> any issue, being lfs/blfs or not. No one was being paid for that. >> For me >> it's always like an exchange. I found the book, I read it and I was >> really surprised about all the work you made and all the efforts >> you are >> making to keep, at least LFS and BLFS books (the other projects >> books I >> don't know because I did not see them, but I don't think they are >> different) highly updated, at least for dev versions. I think that >> almost every week and in many cases more than once in the week you >> update a new svn version of the book, showing that LFS and BLFS >> developers worked hard since the beginning and they keep working hard >> every day. So it was natural my wish to also give my contribution >> by at >> least trying to help other members in the past days even with my still >> limited knowledge, or at least being part of the LFS channels, >> thinking >> "wow these guys are working REALLY hard and they deserve my support >> and >> my recognition for this" . So I was there on the LFS IRC not with the >> main objective of ask help, of course it too, but to either try to >> support the project in any way by helping new members or at least >> showing the IRC developers "hey i'm here on your channel, and I'm >> active, I support you, you can count with me if and when you need!" >> >> Many great staff/moderators I found these days and even in the past >> days >> some months ago when I used to go there as net_priest on the channel, >> like Joe, TheEpitome, a guy who his nick I don't remember but which >> starts with the capital letter "A", Ratrophy, and many others. They >> were >> really not only helping me but also making my day better and I hope I >> was doing the same (at least was my wish from the deep of my heart in >> gratitude for every help I received from them). Well, until this >> morning, 2007-07-06, maybe 2-3AM GMT where the last one, Ratrophy, has >> banned me from the #lfs-support channel, an attitude which left me >> in a >> shock state for the next few minutes, something like "why? what did I >> do? I don't believe it!". Ratrophy was always a very active and >> contributing moderator, and because of this, I think he was the >> moderator that I most had consideration until now. Many were the times >> that he helped me or at least tried to help and many was my thanks for >> him because of this. But this attitude has really made me >> disbelieve not >> only on him but consequently on the whole LFS community. >> >> His reason was simple: I was supposedly asking help for many things >> that >> were not related to LFS/BLFS projects, including a keyboard daemon >> which >> was the reason he banned me. Well, here are my points: >> >> - First of all, I didn't even realize that I was asking so much >> help for >> things don't related to LFS/BLFS, it was so natural that I really >> didn't >> realize. >> - Second, I was NOT asking for his help about this keyboard daemon >> program. I believe you should have the channel logs, you can see it >> clearly and of course tell me if I am wrong but I was just commenting >> about the program, maybe just to see Ratrophy and other members >> opinions >> about it. I NEVER said "I would like you to help me with that" or "I >> think you should have this program on LFS/BLFS, why don't you have >> it?" >> or anything like this, I was just commenting about a program that I >> thought it was curious and interesting at least to share with the >> people >> to see what they think about it. Maybe a little LFS off-topic? Sure it >> could be, but as I said, #lfs-support was historically an off-topic >> chat >> and I never thought it would be a problem. >> - Third, even if I was did asking for help about this program or even >> any LFS-related program, I NEVER thought that helping me was their >> obligation. Of course I complained a little before one time (and >> when I >> said one, it was really just ONE) telling I would like only to listen >> something even if like "oh sh*t I don't know" but I repeat now I never >> said it was their obligation. They were on the channel for >> volunteering >> helping the others, just as I was trying to be after realizing the >> hard >> work you all are doing and after receiving so much help on the past. >> >> - Forth, and this was the most SERIOUS one: No one, which includes >> Ratrophy, has EVER told me to stop off-topic or non-lfs-related >> chat if >> I was doing it that much and not realizing that. I mean, why didn't he >> just told me to stop doing that and explained me the situation before >> banning me directly? It didn't even need to be on chat he could have >> PMed me or, as he doesn't like PMs, just told me "please join the chat >> #icmp_ratrophy_discussion I need to talk to you privately". No, he >> just >> told me to look to the topic, and at the time I didn't realize what he >> meant, then I've put an "?" and then he just banned me. I mean, was it >> really necessary? Why on the f***en hell didn't he just talked to >> me and >> told this issue, which no one EVER did? And you can see the proof >> on the >> logs, I was NEVER warned that I was talking so much off-topic sh*t and >> was NEVER asked to stop. If I did and disrespected that, of course he >> could have a good reason to ban me, as he would have asked me to stop >> and I didn't. But not even that happened! I mean, if you have a gun >> you >> will always shoot first and then ask??? This is insane, and even >> childish and I thought I was participating on a very mature community. >> >> I mean, of course if Ratrophy or anyone have told me that I was >> talking >> so much about off-topic programs (and they thought I was also asking >> help for them, when I was just MENTIONING them, again CHECK the IRC >> LOG), I personally would not agree with that but I would know how to >> RESPECT and stop doing that, even against my wish. But no one told me >> that, I was not able to defend myself, not even to say "ok I will stop >> if I am annoying you with that" and then I just got a +b on my face >> from >> the person I had most respect and consideration in all the channel! >> >> After that I talked to Ratrophy on #lfs channel and he removed the >> ban, >> and asked me to rejoin, but frankly, after this episode I don't ave >> any >> wish to be part of LFS IRC anymore. I an too much disappointed for >> that. >> If you want, leave your opinions, but for me a ban without even trying >> to talk to me first and tell the issue, was really not necessary, a >> power abuse, just to show "hey I'm a moderator I can ban you I'm >> good!". >> Childish! >> >> And the worst part: I've NEVER saw anyone being banned on #lfs- >> support . >> The first thing I thought "what the hell did I do wrong???" It was >> something like that (not exactly but something like this): >> >> Ratrophy: Look at your last question, and read the topic. >> icmp.request: ? * >> * This '?' meant: sorry I don't know what you are talking about I'm >> not >> understanding. >> Ratrophy: Well, I think you didn't get it... >> Ratrophy bans icmp.request >> >> Frankly, sorry for the words I will use but what the f**k was >> that??? I >> mean, couldn't he have tried to just explain "I think you are talking >> too much non-related LFS stuff, maybe you could stop...?" Sure I would >> do! I am NOT a teenager and I decided to not be a teenager anymore >> since >> 4-5 years ago. And since then, I was never banned by any community I >> made part of, all the ones I had any issue with its philosophy I left >> myself no one had to ban me, by the simple reason I'm not a f***en >> stupid bastard who wants to ruin the others fun. The only thing I >> could >> do if Ratrophy would have proceed like this, asking me to stop, >> would be >> have taken this subject ahead, about what should be considered on- >> topic >> and off-topic and maybe suggest people to participate more of the #lfs >> channel. I would not complain about this attitude, I would have >> respected and obeyed it. IF not, then a +b would be justified. >> >> But not, he decided to directly ban me, and later talk to me about the >> issue, a completely childish, disrespectful, inhuman, POWER ABUSIVE >> and >> really forgive me for what I will tell now but stupid action. Ratrophy >> has given a REALLY BAD image about LFS Staff. When he did it, I was so >> shocked that in the first minutes after the ban I couldn't even >> believe >> it, I was literally FROZEN ahead of my computer because I NEVER >> expected >> this action from an LFS moderator, specially a so participative one as >> Ratrophy. >> >> All that I can ask now is to the moderators and staff members of >> the LFS >> Community check the logs and take this issue ahead. If you don't do >> this, it can happen again and more people may leave LFS as I'm just >> about to do. The main reason I was on LFS IRC until now was not to >> receive general help, as for that there are general linux channels, >> neither receive lfs specific help as I am already experience very few >> problems on LFS install and most of them I am being able to solve >> on my >> own, so I would just be using lfs mail list to report very few >> problems >> and that's all. The main reason I was on LFS IRC until now was to show >> my support to LFS and be part of a community that I was loving to be >> part of. >> >> >> Now for some final considerations about the text I've made: >> >> - I could have just retired myself totally from LFS project and >> gone to >> Gentoo, without writing anything. And I'm NOT doing this as a >> vengeance >> act about what Ratrophy has done. I just, even not knowing the main >> participants of the LFS book, that you work really hard, you helped >> really much and you at least deserved to know if something wrong is >> going on. Until know at least I believed you deserved as much >> support as >> possible, by knowing what is going on and why a so grateful and >> respectful member is about to leave. I could have just said "It's >> not my >> business anymore, f**k off them all" and not waste 2h of my time >> writing >> this text, but I feel I would be so unfair to people who work hard >> do much. >> >> - This is NOT a text encouraging normal members to leave. Besides that >> episode LFS is an AMAZING project of people who, as I already said >> many >> and many times in this text, work really hard. Of course I'm about to >> leave but somethings make me have enough faith that LFS Staff will at >> least investigate this. >> >> - I am NOT asking punishment to Ratrophy even because who am I, a >> strange, a newcomer, against someone who must be already many years on >> LFS. Of course I would not have any chance. But even if I had I >> think he >> contributes enough for LFS and helps enough other members for just >> receiving a lecture, like "dude look what you just did...don't do this >> anymore..." . >> >> - I am NOT trying to split the staff and make staff members ones >> against >> others. That would be TERRIBLE for a such amazing project! >> >> - This discussion is mainly NOT about what can be off-topic or not in >> #lfs-support channel like as I told you if I would be told to stop >> talking this things I would have stopped. Then perhaps I would lead >> into >> a discussion about this but without complaining about no one; the >> opposite, with the objective to make LFS IRC more clean and organized >> with more specific and clear rules which would benefit the whole LFS >> community and would not hurt not even 1% of the respect and the >> consideration that I had with Ratrophy. >> >> - The main objective of this text is simple: I was banned without >> being >> warned before to stop the behavior that made me being banned; was >> "shoot >> first and talk later"; I was always respectful and supportive and >> frankly I felt myself so much humiliated about this, because as I told >> you, I'm an adult and always acted like an adult on LFS and not a >> stupid >> teenager who just want to make other people's life miserable. For the >> opposite, my main objective was always to make the life of the >> people of >> the channel better as a form of gratitude for all the help and >> knowledge >> I received all this time from LFS. >> >> - Normal members are discouraged to discuss about it, as it could be >> split into an endless discussion about people defending Ratrophy and >> people accusing him and my objective is very far from causing >> conflicts >> between the members of a project that I have so much admiration and >> respect for. >> >> - This text is mainly directed to the STAFF. If you think there >> will be >> staff members who will not read this because they do not make part of >> the chat mailing list, please forward it to the proper persons/mailing >> lists. >> >> - I just want it to be investigated, nothing else. Please CHECK the >> logs >> and review Ratrophy attitude and just tell if it was fair and correct. >> If Staff opinion is that it was, I'm leaving permanently LFS community >> and going to the Gentoo one, not mad or angry with the staff members >> (exception for Ratrophy of course) but really, deeply sad by this >> occurrence but leaving my thanks for all the great work you made on >> the >> book and all the help I received, that I was beginning to want to give >> it back not only by helping newbie members but on the future >> beginning a >> dev-tester and a helping contributor for any of the projects, but >> unfortunately I won't be able to anymore. >> >> I really thank and appreciate anyone who read this text until here, >> >> Estevão Becker (icmp.request / net_priest) >> >> -- >> ICMP Request - Don't forget to call me when you ping! >> >> -- >> http://linuxfromscratch.org/mailman/listinfo/lfs-chat >> FAQ: http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/faq/ >> Unsubscribe: See the above information page > > Hello Estevão, > > It was a hasty decision on my part. Looking forward to your help. I > am sorry and am fully responsible for my lack of tact within the last > 24 hours. > > Sincerely, > > William -- http://linuxfromscratch.org/mailman/listinfo/lfs-chat FAQ: http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/faq/ Unsubscribe: See the above information page
