Then the question is are we fighting for our liberty or to preserve someone elses position or status. That is the final problem with conservatism. In the final analysis, it is about keeping the privileged few on their thrones. You seem to have a great deal of faith in government at the foreign policy level. I guess I am not so sanguine. As far as enemies destroying us from within, to whom are you referring? Of course, there is nothing inherently bad in monitoring the visa crowd as long as someone is checking the checkers. I am not so concerned about Juan and Maria who are most likely here for economic and social reasons. One movement for justice that might get us beyond the war versus no-war debate would be to enact something akin to the Capital Homestead Accounts (CHA) advocated by Norman Kurland and his group and promote such a plan both domestically and internationally. Without getting into the micro-technical aspects, it addresses several macro-issues: 1) It may finally put to rest calls for compensation/reparations for the wrongs committed against, well...everybody. 2) It spreads the capitalist marketplace, and ownership, from the ground-up rather than trying to grow it from the top-down by encouraging broad-based ownership in the economy. 3) It addresses one of the concerns about the concentration of capital in fewer and fewer hands without resorting to redistribution schemes. 4) By creating capital accounts for all citizens, it moves the discussion away from welfare and focuses on self responsibility by giving access to tools to accomplish those goals. It also acknowledges that we may be moving beyond a wage/salary society to a capital ownership society. (In the end, we may find that sophisticated machines can do most work better, faster and cheaper than humans. Plus machines don't get sick, complain, or go on strike. That leaves decisions as to the uses of capital to humans.) 5) It places natural limits on the state due to its ground up approach. If ownership is broad-based, the state's ability to meddle is more easily thwarted. 6) It can become a cornerstone to be promoted internationally (foreign policy) to spread capitalism and liberty worldwide without attempting to impose(?) it top-down. No guns or bullets, just a plan for justice. Greg
Eric Dondero Rittberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: And the problem with the Peacenik approach is that the whole word thinks we are a bunch of woosies who are not willing to fight for our lives and our country. Result, our enemies spill over our borders and destroy us from within. --- In [email protected], Greg Southworth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I can see spreading liberty by opening markets, pushing for broad- based ownership in society, etc. I would prefer to see it done quietly and behind the scenes. That is less messy than war, which can quickly go wrong as we see in Iraq, and puts pressure on the ruling elites within these countries to move toward liberty. The problem with a strongly interventionist approach is that it assumes the government has the noblest of motives in spreading "democratic values" internationally, but then says they cannot be trusted at home--they need limits. My concern is that the state that seeks to benefit its most powerful constituents at home will also seek to benefit those constituencies in the international arena. > > Greg > > Eric Dondero Rittberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Greg, I might remind you that a significant number of libertarians > are also Pro-War and subscribe precisely to the believe you express > below that it is our duty as Americans to spread our beliefs in > liberty and freedom worldwide. > > I am a passionate believer in that credo. > > I've never understood the hypocritical stance of many Libertarians > who believe we should be non-intervenionist and ignore the rest of > the World. How ass-backwards! As libertarians we should be > SPREADING THE GOOD CHEER OF LIBERTY WORLDWIDE!!! And if that means > desposing of brutal murderous dictators like Pol Pot and Saddam > Hussein, then that's PRECISELY what we need to be doing!!! > > So, "interventionism" is NOT just a conservative stance, IT'S A > LIBERTARIAN STANCE AS WELL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! > > > --- In [email protected], Greg Southworth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > I agree that the best bet appears to be the Republican Party. I > wish those who wish to work within the Democratic Party the best. > Interestingly, there may be a window of opportunity with the Dems > now due to the generally dismal performance outside the Northeast, > the West Coast and Upper Midwest, but I personally believe they will > have much more to overcome as one of the guiding views of the > Democratic Party is that your elected representatives are only as > good as the last high dollar project they brought home to the state, > district, or particular community. Of course, Republicans are not > immune to this either, but at least limited government is in their > lexicon if not their practice. > > > > One important caveat in working with the Republicans, a little > quirk I find annoying. When a problem is identified, their first > reaction is to say the problem does not exist, or that it is not > that bad. This is especially the case with the conservative variety. > An excellent example involves pollution and issues around the > environment. Rather than acknowledge that pollution is a form of > criminal trespass and advocate treating it as a violation of > property rights, they will say: 1) pollution does not exist (i.e. > denial), or 2) pollution is good for you (i.e. a form of > minimization), or 3) identifying the problem is part of a conspiracy > to expand government (i.e. attribution of ulterior motives to the > messengers). The irony is that it plays right into those who want > more government because the "Republicans, it can now be seen are in > bed with the moneyed interests who have a vested interest in keeping > things the way they are (i.e. unaddressed)." > > > > Another caveat is in the field of foreign policy. For some reason, > the Republicans have bought into a view which has its roots in what > used to be the conservative wing of the Democratic Party. Neocons > exemplify this perspective. America has a duty to export its power > and influence in the world as we are the force for good. This will > sometimes cause us to do things for the greater good even though the > act itself may not be appealing--we must destroy the village to save > it. But that's okay because we are America! > > > > My only point in saying these things is that we should be careful > not to become just another flavor of conservative--ones who just > want to save a little money. My hope is that we could transform the > Republicans into a party that is libertarian, green, and committed > to expanding the ownership society, which is done through the free > markets. > > > > Greg > > > > Deus Ex Machina <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Eric Dondero Rittberg [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > > I tried that route too. > > > > > > As you may know I worked for US Congressman Ron Paul for 6 years > as > > > his Senior Aide. A side project as Aide was American > territorial > > > possessions, specifically Navassa Island, Seranilla Banks and > Bajo > > > Nuevo in the Caribbean. > > > > > > I tried like hell for months to get libertarians interested in > > > populating these uninhabited terriritories. Ron was into it > too. > > > > > > Instead, they all got swept up by the nutty Free State Project > and > > > Ice Cold New Hampshire. > > > > > > There's only one route left for us; activism within the GOP. > > > > I think this is a sane response. the LP platforms are just so far > out there > > as to be inaccessible to ordinary people. > > > > Vic > > > > > > > > ForumWebSiteAt http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Libertarian > > > > > > > > SPONSORED LINKS > > Libertarian English language Political parties Online dictionary > American politics > > > > --------------------------------- > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS > > > > > > Visit your group "Libertarian" on the web. > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > Service. > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > ForumWebSiteAt http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Libertarian > > > > --------------------------------- > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS > > > Visit your group "Libertarian" on the web. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > --------------------------------- > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! 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