I think in the final analysis we will find that bad government combined with bad economic practices have limited entrepreneurship in many parts of the world. I suppose I am an optimist in that I believe a free market inspires innovation even among the poorest (and seemingly most unproductive) people. However, if "my group" can control the levers of government and the economy, we control the reward system, at least in part. Too many countries are faced with this. Given this system, people can either adapt to the rewards and punishments that system offers...or revolt. Of course, if you revolt, you may be killed along with your family and friends. At best, you may be sent to prison and /or tortured, or you could just vanish! Demographers are now saying that the world population will probably stablize sometime in mid-century. In many places, that population will be older which offers some interesting possibilities. Others are pointing out that the move towards freer markets is actually lifting many out of poverty. We are not there yet, but progress is being made. Questions about the poorest of the poor remain. Personally, I think some not-for-profit moves to encourage micro-enterprize offers some hope. There have been to small scale successes especially when you look at ways to help local business people and farmers expand through access to credit for expansion and require that loans be repaided to the group (other farmers and business people). Greg Greg
Mary Dolan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: "Overpopulation" problems exist where there are too many UNPRODUCTIVE people--not where there are too many people. By "unproductive," I mean people who, for whatever reason (including, especially, bad government), are liabilities to society, rather than assets. People who are net liabilites are unproductive. Government, given free rein, will fix things so that you, I, and everyone else, is a helpless, dependent, liability, each producing less than we need, each allowing whatever already exists to go to ruin. Or, it will fix things so that any person, ON AVERAGE, is a liability. Then it announces the problem will be alleviated in proportion as there are fewer people. Not so. If there were only two or three people on earth, conditions of "overpopulation" might obtain--if the people were governed badly enough or were ill. --if, as a group, they managed to need more than they produced. Perhaps, somewhere, sometime, somehow, free people may proliferate to such an extent that despite all their new ideas, new technology, new trades, new use of resources, new inventions, new methods of conservation, new farming methods, new energy sources, new modes of transportation, new medical breakthroughs, new building methods, etc.etc, etc, everything will still run out. True overpopulation will then have occurred. In other words, it may be that someday the unproductivity WILL stem from human proliferation. So far that has never even nearly occurred. Right now, when you see traffic jams, crowded housing, etc., you can think of it this way: We need MORE people--people to produce private air vehicles, or, perhaps more roads, people who can make habitable areas that now are not habitable, or, perhaps, who can revolutionize the building industry. People who can find new fuels. Who is working on those problems? Not I. Not anyone in his right mind. You'd be sued ninety-five ways from sunday if you did. --and be blamed for being rich and exploitative and selfish as well. Greg Southworth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: The overpopulation thing is one of those problems which depends on how you approach it. There were predictions in the late 1970s that said we would all, or most of us, would be starving to death by now. While irresponsible "breeding" can be a problem, the bigger issue is how do distribution systems work for the basics of life. This also means that technology plays a role in improving quality and distribution. Those of us who are libertarian believe the best long term answer is the free market. You will also notice that prosperous societies tend to reduce their reproduction rate--in many third world countries, more kids means more people to work the fields and the factories and less burden to share among those kids to care for you in your old age. An infrastructure that supports people having resources of their own means that decisions to have large families are based less on economics. There is a dynamic which the world will have to address. I am not sure it is a problem as much as a new condition that just is. The 21st century will see over 50% of its population in urban areas. This also means that the production of food and fiber may change. Perhaps, hydroponics, or similar technologies, will reduce the need to tie up many many acres in crop production. But that's the job of the free market, should we allow it. Greg libertyaction wrote: I would like to have some documentation for your position. You quote a few boogiemen that have called for reduction in population as if their dreaded names alone can make the metastasizing of human population and ok thing. Lets hear your sources. Don't just tell me from where you got the silly quotes! You use old-fashioned words like "hogwash" so I am guessing you may be old. I am 62. I am very sad hordes of people I don't know or care about have come to my beautiful Central Texas and destroyed, in a few short years, what nature took so long to produce. I don't just think I have a population problem because someone told me. I think I have a population problem because I am up to my ass in traffic everyday - because my taxes go up every year to built them infrastructure and educate their children, etc. and on and on. What is your source for the stupid thing you said about Jacksonville, Fla.? May be you could fit their souls in there but what are you going to do with their bodies? It may even be true that they could be there without touching. But they wouldn't. That is not the nature of man. They would be touching and pushing and jockeying for space. And what are you going to do when they all flush the toilet!? The city of Jacksonville has 800,000 people (www.coj.net) and the world has 6,549,502,115. That is when I left http://www.ibiblio.org/ lunarbin/worldpop a few minutes ago. It is higher now. (It actually is fascinating to sit there and watch the numbers climb second by second.) Why would your mind work in such a strange way as to even contemplate cramming all the world population in this small area? Why do you want a big population, anyway? Do you intend to sell them something? Only mass marketers like big populations. The rest of us like a little peace and low taxes and space for a garden. --- In [email protected], Bob Dunbar wrote: > HOGWASH!..Malthusian HOGWASH!..Do you realize how hopeless you sound??..suicide..A GOOD THING? (Actually, things didn't unfold as Malthus projected and Malthus changed his tune before he died; but, you don't hear about that) > > ...has it ever dawned on you that if you're born in the position of being "referee" or regulator, and being in CONTROL...you gotta have something to regulate and be in CONTROL of..?? Hmmm.. let's see, quotas on the right to exist might be jolly good. That would fit the bill, even for Philip, certainly for Gorby) > > With all due respect, Mr.Funklemeyer, I must take the opposing view, though not "politically correct". > > Jacques Cousteau said, "to stabilize the world population we must eliminate 350,000 people per day. It is a horrible thing to say," he admitted, "but it would be worse not to say it." This sentiment, published in UNESCO Courier in November 1991, is not rare among NUTTY envirochondriacs. ...Margaret SAnger/Ted Turner/ and Prince Philip...who on earlier post here was quoted as saying > ........ "If I were reincarnated, I would wish to be returned to Earth as a killer virus to lower human population levels." Yes, that Prince Philip--our Queen's consort. Prince Philip is leader of the World Wildlife Fund. znd.... > > [A.H.Kissinger, of East Timor fame (believe he now controls mineral rights & influences the reduced population) sagely informs us mere peasants in America that "Military men are dumb, stupid animals to be used" as pawns in foreign policy. > ...(UNESCO..why does abortion/East Timor/Rwanda/Burundi/AIDS/innoculation/dead microbiologistd/depleted uranium come to mind?) > > Have you bought into this B.S. simply because someone told you that we have a population problem? Where is it?...in Mongolia? Algeria? Kansas? > > The area of the planet where the signs of intelligent life are most visible from space is centered on Belgium/Netherlands/Western Germany/No. France. These folks are among the world's healthiest, most productive, well fed/educated/etcetcetc.. > > > Do you realize that every living human soul on Earth could fit in one US city, Jacksonville, FL, without touching one another? Granted, the St Johns River would lose much of it's recreational value, but keep in mind that Jacksonville is only a fraction the size of Rhode Island, which in turn is one seventh the size of Brazil's smallest, of abt 30 states..Sergipe. Brazil makes up only a fraction of S.Am, which is dwarfed by ASIA or Afr....etc..etc > > Would you rather live in New Jersey or Paraguay? Germany or Chad? Denmark or Libya? England or Russia? In each case, the former is between THIRTY and SIXTY times as densely populated; is it possible that people are resourses? Countries with lower population densities generally do have lower standards of living. > > The over-population myth began thousands of years ago in ancient Greece among those wanting ultimate control over others. As espoused by you, we should expect double ID, and then I suppose, a "chip"and ultimately our very existance to be determined by government quota? Google dead microbiologists or man-made disease (these are related, I'm afraid) and you may come to the conclusion that we are already experiencing the ill effects of allowing this EVIL control mechanism to be acceptanced by the dumbed down society, while it fights A.D.D/drugs/mercury florine&otherpoison /dead mineraless diet/cancer and such and struggles to think in terms of days, weeks or months. The CONTROLLERS , who you would have us thanking for allowing our presence here on Mother Earth, think in generations. > > No where in history has "overpopulation" done harm; on the contrary...but, the myth has..eg. to China and India, the most damaged by the myth. Don't buy into this crock. Go forth and multiply. > > UncBob > > > Kundinkle Funklemeir wrote: > Overpopulation actually is a very severe problem. The ecosystems cannot sustain 6 billion people along with all of the technology and the pollution it creates: e.g. Species dying, global warming, etc. Eventually some sort of draconian measures to reduce population will have to be done. The most benign way would be to introduce sterilization agents into food and water to vastly decrease the rate of births, along with a program of mass euthanasia where people can be mercifully and painlessly dispatched to a better world. Suicide should be encouraged and the means to do it painlessly; readily available at the local drug store.... The less humane options of both Nature and Man will be war and disease, as well as natural disasters. War and disease were Nature's way of keeping populations of humans sustainable. Medical science along with the idea that all lives should be sustained because all life is 'good' has led to terrible evils of overpopulation and hordes of different cultures > clashing in war over scarce resources. The Elites are right about culling population, although their motives may be questionable. It is going to be done. It is better to do it in a humane way, than an inhumane way. > > Mona Lott wrote: > I was not familiar with "military transformation" Thanks for posting > the link.. (http://www.comw.org/pda/0302conetta.html)I say thanks, > but actually this is pretty depressing. It is all predicated on "the > world changed after 911" and as you point out, there is no question > of the real reasons 911 occurred; POPULATION CONTROL and as Sheehan > is demonstrating, wars for ISRAEL. It was by design and the > same "designers" certainly have something to do with "transforming" > our military. > > As far as ART BELL is concerned, I am still a fan. Maybe I am in > denial and believe that he really does not see what you do. > > Take care, "Mona" > > --- Bob Dunbar > wrote: > > My addiction goes back to before 1995, and unfortunately has been > so strong that it effects my entire routine. > > > > Agree with some of what you say...particularly about the other > guys; being somewhat conservative, I was their fan at one time, > also. Not any more. > > > > And the same thing applies to Art Bell....he is a bought and paid > for whore with less courage in his entire body than George Noory has > in his little finger. But, I'm not so naive as to be certain that > there isn't some sort of good cop/bad cop deal at work here. > > > > This dramatic change in my respect for Bell began a couple years > ago when he rudely, abruptly, hung up on a caller...a polite and well > spoken woman.. who wanted only to report on the 911 commission > proceedings. He showed his true colors, " I won't listen to any of > that unpatriotic conspiracy theory hogwash"..SLAM...All she wanted to > do is report facts...no opinion. > > > > I immediate sent out emails to over 100 egroups with thumbnail > verbal sketch, listed ARTBELL's 2 email addresses, and requested a > letter writing campaign. These efforts, and more likely those of > others, plus a lot of absolute regret by his large and well informed > audience must have had some effect, as he apologized (sort-of...more > like explanation...clock dictates, etc..) the next night. > > > > A year later, and about a year ago, we had the privledge of > Noory/Van Kliest on a Thursday night, followed by ART/flaming Zionist > moron Howard Bloom, on Saturday..below for your info is my unanswered > response to ART (he actually had responded earlier) (LAME LAME LAME) > > > > At the time I last wrote ART BELL I had accumulated just over 100 > anomalies concerning 911; that list is now up to over 600. Fact is, I > am about Art's age, and our generation has screwed up...it's easy if > you're not totally brain dead...eg. .falling steel doen't pulverize > itself into dust particles/or google William Rodriguez/or buzzy > krongard/ or 4 USAF standdowns within an hour or so/or 600 other > covered-up"anomalies"... > > > > Can you tell me what qualifies Lynn Cheney to be on the Lockheed > Martin board?...or Phil Graham's spouse on Dynacorp's?....shit, I > feel a Halliburton/Carlyle/Dynacorp rant coming on...better take a > deep breathe.. Crap like this simply would not have been tolerated 30 > years ago, my generation has fucked up.....permitting the "dumbing > down" of the public, and the legislature and press... 2 of the > 4 "estates" who should scream to high heaven, to be had by dual > allegiance neo-cons. > > > > > > IKE (I'm partial to WestPointers) warned us of this foreboding > possibilty in his Farewell Address American Rhetoric: > Dwight D. Eisenhower -- > http://www.americanrhetoric.com/speeches/dwightdeisenhowerfarewell.htm > l > > > > AHHHH.....Military Transformation .....doesn't this translate to > domestic enemy?...doesn't anybody in service question this training; > (guess 4starBryne did)... why is public so ignorant...when the > internet is shut down, we're all "chipped" and Avian flu > innoculation is MANDATORY for all..( like anthrax was for > some )...those will be the days. I don't ask that you believe me..all > I ask is that you look at the possibilities (and then, hopefully, > tell me I'm wrong; of course, i'd rather eat crow than be correct.) > > > > Thomas Jefferson said that the highest form of patriotism and OUR > DUTY is to remain knowledgeable, question, and keep a "Vigilant > Alert." My generation has been asleep. > > > > > > > > Here's last ARTBELL letter...circa last year this time... > > LAME LAME LAME > > I have met God, and he lives in Brooklyn. ...Howard Bloom is next > in a lineage of seminal thinkers that includes Newton, Darwin, > Einstein, Freud, and Buckminster Fuller... (from his website!) WHAT > a CROCK! http://www.howardbloom.net/) > > > > Thursday's guest,vonKliest deals only in verifiable facts...he goes > out of his way not to speculate; tonight's "GOD" from Brooklyn has > us speculating about Pakistani submarines/binLaden attacks on > NYC/Washington/plus seven or more other cities, the almost certainty > of an attack on 11/1 or 11/2 (wonder what info he is privy to)and > the inevitability of one world government. Ignore the facts. > You're "racist" if you don't ignore the facts and don't attribute the > 911 attrocity to Moslems in Afghani caves. You're rascist if you > don't see the threat of Pakistan. After all, to think otherwise is to > take the bigoted, rascist position that they are not clever enough. > > > > How many times did he refer to his "Islamic friends"...how many > times did you say "since we are speculating?" PURE B.S. > > > > RACIST is his accusation to those that would accept scientifically > verifiable evidence. This is a bit of a stretch, don't you think? > (to me, this is one step removed from the ole' "anti-semitic" ploy > that Bloom has likely used a thousand times.) > > > > I was the "Cal Ripken" of Art Bell radio, over 2200 consecutive > and steering many to your show over the years; not only have you > lost me, but I assure you that I will now spend my weekend free time > contacting any/every potential listener to ask them perhaps the most > important question of this generation; > > "There's no real debate about whether or not people in our own > government and the black ops "intelligence" community were complicit > in the choreography of the atrocities. Either you've looked at the > evidence and arrived at the only sensible conclusion it supports, or > you've ignored the evidence, or found a way to deny it. To deny that > people in our own government are responsible for the attacks is to > deny logic, common sense, and the laws of physics. Will you look at > the facts?" > > > > Ex-Art Bell fan (and ex-military pilot), > > Bob Dunbar....who cannot listen to BUSH or ARTBELL w/o his > skin "crawling" > > > > Kundinkle Funklemeir wrote: > > > > > > I have been listening to "Coast To Coast AM Radio" with Art Bell > and George Noory for a long time.... For the most part it is the best > talk radio show on the air; hands-down. Rush Limbaugh is a festering > balloon of farting fulminations, Sean Hannity and Michael Reagan, > pompous clods, Dennis Prager, smarter than most, but still a > predictable Zionist partisan and conservative mouthpiece.... The rest > whether Democraps or Repugnicans, are all boring and predictable. By > contrast "Coast-To Coast" is a festival of weirdness I cannot stop > listening to.... It ranges from parapolitics, to occultism, to UFO's, > to bigfoot, Atlantis and the Pyramids, it is really is totally > rivetting.... The show is almost never boring. The only time it is; > is when Art Bell veers off what he does best, which is showcase > weirdness; thus straying into bringing on government shills who > repeat the same Newspeak you can hear on CNN. That is boring > indeed.... Cut it out Art....... > > > > Other than that fault, Art Bell is still my favorite host overall > in terms of style. Nobody can compare with the guy when he stays away > from politics. His verve, polish, and sense of keeping the show on > the right track with insightful comments and questions is the best > radio banter on the part of any talk show host I have ever heard. Art > Bell is the greatest "radio man" overall in my book..... Case closed > on that....... > > > > George Noory is not as good as Art, but often his shows content- > wise are more interesting.... The reason for this, is that Art is > a "System Guy" who seldom takes chances with material that is too > controversial. George on the other hand has serious balls. He has 9- > 11 conspiracy people on, people talking about mind-control and > parapolitical stuff that is sizzlingly hot. He could play it safe; > but he doesn't, he isn't afraid of having anyone on who > is "politically incorrect" and says whatever he thinks "damned the > consequences." Not sure how smart this is, but it makes for really > good radio. My only critique is that George can get a bit goofy, in a > way common to Gemini's. He says really crazy things sometimes, like > saying "Benjamin Creme is a psychic vampire," just because some > people in the radio audience said "they got sick" hearing Creme. This > is some kind of mass hysteria, and George falling into this is just > plain silly. George though is smart and funny guy in a lot of ways, > and > > what he lacks in style compared to Art he makes up for in content > and warmth. > > > > Ian Punnet on Saturdays needs a lot of work. He sounds really > awkward and stiff. It is hard to live in the shadow of George and > Art, so he should be given a chance but in my view he just isn't > cutting it. Maybe it is because he is from Minnasota and has a > strange kind of radio presence that puts Californians like me off.... > I do not know.... He needs to get into the groove of this show, and > he does not seem like he is in it. The guest on last night about > the "health benefits of tobacco" was totally boring. Aside from > spouting utter bunk, he was very dull. Ian sank into the entropy > along with him. I think that Art and George should pick the guests > Ian has, more of these types and I am turning the show off on > Saturdays. > > > > I think that Art and George should have more wingnuts on like "JC" > for 'comic relief.' This kind of stuff makes for good radio and there > is no need to be serious all of the time... Ed Dames is funny with > his crazy Remote Views that almost never happen, and his "doom and > gloom" ideas like saying "the world is going to end in Oct" and > sometimes he says stuff of substance, but often serious guests end up > sounding like loons anyway. Many of them are very brilliant and they > do not. The only thing is a lot of these physics guys on have a very > narrow reality tunnel, and seem very ignorant of higher metaphysical > ideas and even higher ideas in physics like Quantum Theory. They are > still pretty good though...... Aaron Donahue was interesting > advocating a "Luciferian Totalitarian New World Order of Global > Socialism" and saying that "people should welcome having microchips > put into them." He and his dad are really knowledgeable about > Crowley and Demonology, but this NWO idea to me is simply > > bonkers.... Monarchy would be a good choice better than this, and > the end of the human race would be better than totalitarianism. That > is probably where it is all going anyway, extinction. > > > > In any event, I am addicted to this show. Find the station in your > area that carries it: > > > > http://www.coasttocoastam.com > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! 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