Yes, we can discuss it next, after this ongoing exchange. Anna ----- Original Message ----- From: gclark809 To: [email protected] Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2005 11:16 PM Subject: [Libertarian] Re: the truth....
Did you read all three chapters which is about the equal of 70 printed pages??? Perhaps you can enlighten us with which aspects of the Austrian theories of subjective value and time preference you disagree. --- In [email protected], "Anna" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > I do not believe it refutes Marx. > I certainly believe there should be some earnings on borrowed money, the question only is how much. > Anna > ----- Original Message ----- > From: gclark809 > To: [email protected] > Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2005 7:53 PM > Subject: [Libertarian] Re: the truth.... > > > I have no idea what is meant here by "exploitation" but if it is > Marx's concept, that was demolished in 1890! See: > > http://www.econlib.org/library/BohmBawerk/bbCI.html > > It starts: > > "BOOK VI > THE EXPLOITATION THEORY > > ----------------------- > > Book VI, Chapter I > > Historical Survey > > We come now to that remarkable theory the enunciation of which, if > not the most agreeable among the scientific events of our century, > certainly promises to be one of the most serious in its consequences. > It stood at the cradle of modern Socialism and has grown up along > with it; and to-day it forms the theoretical centre around which move > the forces of attack and defence in the struggle of organising human > society. > > VI.I.1 > This theory has as yet no short distinctive name. If I were to give > it one from a characteristic of its chief professors, I should call > it the Socialist theory of interest. If I were to try to indicate by > the name the theoretic purport of the doctrine itself,-which to my > mind would be more appropriate,-no name seems more suitable than that > of the Exploitation theory. This accordingly is the name I shall use > in the sequel. Condensed into a few sentences, the essence of the > theory may be provisionally put thus. > > VI.I.2 > All goods that have value are the product of human labour, and > indeed, economically considered, are exclusively the product of human > labour. The labourers, however, do not retain the whole product which > they alone have produced; for the capitalists take advantage of their > command over the indispensable means of production, as secured to > them by the institution of private property, to secure to themselves > a part of the labourers' product. The means of doing so are supplied > by the wage contract, in which the labourers are compelled by hunger > to sell their labour-power to the capitalists for a part of what > they, the labourers, produce, while the remainder of the product > falls as profit into the hands of the capitalists, without any > exertion on their part. Interest is thus a portion of the product of > other people's labour, obtained by exploiting the necessitous > condition of the labourer." > > He goes on to completely refute the "labor theory" of value and > Marx's idea of the "exploitation of the "working class." > > > > --- In [email protected], "Anna" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > Yes, but how do you prevent exploitation of the needy ones? One > person may have 10 kids to support, another 1. > > When they apply for the job, the pay offered may be good enough > for a single kid parent, but not the other parent. > > Would you say then the choice of having so many kids means that a > person chooses to be poorer? > > Anna > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Paul > > To: [email protected] > > Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2005 4:59 PM > > Subject: [Libertarian] Re: the truth.... > > > > > > WE don't decide. THEY do. If they apply for a job and are > offered a > > job, they can negotiate with the business what their salary is > worth > > based on their skills, education, and experience. If the business > > isn't offering what they want, they don't have to take it. They > can > > apply somewhere else. If they accept the offer, they are agreeing > > that this is the value of their labor. > > > > The market and free will determine the value. > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], "Anna" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > Mark, some people may need a job, any job and this gives a > chance > > for abuse by employers. > > > So my question was, how we decide the values and worth? > > > > > > Anna > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: mark robert > > > To: [email protected] > > > Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2005 9:07 AM > > > Subject: RE: [Libertarian] Re: the truth.... > > > > > > > > > Ana, > > > > > > > > > > > > You need to go ask the two who are engaged in the business > > > relationship. I assume you will be told "yes". Or save > yourself > > > the effort and deduce your answer by observing their actions - > if > > > it's not just, why would we be voluntarily doing it? > > > > > > > > > > > > -Mark > > > > > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > This is the whole issue: > > > Is the physical work worth more than thinking or doing deals? > > > The same? > > > You claim that the guy who does the thinking deserves to get > > > more. > > > This means that the worker's effort in building the house is > > > worth less than the guy's who did not lift a finger doing the > > > construction job. > > > Is it just? > > > Anna > > > > > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > ForumWebSiteAt http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Libertarian > > > > > > > > > > > > SPONSORED LINKS E government Libertarian E government > strategy > > > Libertarian party E government procurement > > > > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------- ---- > ------------ > > > YAHOO! 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