--- In [email protected], "terry12622000" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > I think some of Paul's argument and some of the miniarchist > argument is very similar to some of the arguments Randy Barnett > although many anarchist fail at answering the arguments correctly. > First off Barnett does not think of himself as a miniarchist because > he has endorsed a Constitutional Polycentric system he might be > thought of as an anarchist but like Rothbard and Hoppe he does beleve > in a order of law via natural law and natural rights, some Anarchist > believe in no order and I think that is the type Paul and miniarchist > have a real problem with. In fact those Anarchist who beleve in order > really can't be called > anarchist. > Barnett in his book on the constitution finds like I do We > the people as the authority of the constitution, being unsupportive by > evidence, in fact the evidence tends to disprove the theory, on the other hand if a person acts they will be judged by > their actions, if people just went around enforcing conflicts > without any neutral as possible judge or jury we would have Hobbs law > of the jungle, the strong would prey on the weak, so a natural law > and natural rights are necessary to > order. > Barnett basially says the federal government has the authority to > act just as any other person or group has to enforce and judge > accused acts against natural rights but the federal government is > limted even more than the average person or group by the constitution > which basically is a promise to the people ( not a contract binding on the people and a contract between the states ( although I think evidence shows the federal government has broken that contract with the states and thus it is null and void) . > I would like to say further that the states are also limited by > their constitution, the state and the federal government is > restricted to do things to those who did not give real consent even > more so than private persons or private groups but the state or > federal government can act towards those who did not give real > consent if they are accused or have been found to violate natural > rights. On the other hand the federal or state government can not > force people who did not give real consent to pay taxes or fees > unless the person has been found to violate another persons natural > rights then court costs and prison costs can be forced on that > person. > > Barnett makes a few points that I don't think makes sense and one > of these has been argued by his crtics and him in the Journal Of > Libertarian STudies. From what I gather he says we have a duty to > obey the government if it is following the principles of natural law > thus if the government finds you guilty of violating someones natural > rights you have a duty to abide by the governments decesion. I don't > think so if in fact you did not violate someones rights, if in fact > you know you did not do it, that you were framed you do not have a > duty to obey but if the jury and appeals in fairness could only come > to the conclusion that you were guilty then it would be best for you > not to attack individuals who are only doing their honest duty but if > you can escape you have a right to do so, understand that others can > only judge by the evidence presented to them so they have a duty to > judge on that evidence. Yeah in some rare cases just duties between > people can conflict with each other. Outside of court cost, police cost and prison cost being payed by the convicted crimnal really the only consentual fees the government can apply is a service fee for voluntary users via contract insurance fees, property title fees, patent and copyright fees, incorporation fees and membership fees to state, county and local governments, possibly a voting fee would be consent if non voters could be on a jury and if juries were giving teir authority back to judge legistion, people could basically pay their taxes on election day, you know they would be low then but at present a poll tax is unconstitutional.--- In > [email protected], "Thomas L. Knapp" <thomaslknapp@> > wrote: > > > > Quoth Paul Ireland: > > > > > 1. The lines aren't "imaginary". They are real and tangible and > paid > > > for with blood. > > > > Hmmm ... I've traveled over a number of them and have never seen > them. > > Furthermore, if someone paid for them, in blood or any other > currency, > > then it follows that they belong to the people who did the paying > > and/or those people's heirs or assignees, not to the state. > > > > > 2. We the People gave the state control over those lines. > > > > I don't know who this "we" you're talking about consists of. As for > > myself, I was never asked to give the state control over those > lines, > > or over anything else, and quite likely would have declined if I > _had_ > > been asked, and have never assigned my power of attorney to anyone > who > > might have complied with such a request on my behalf. > > > > > 3. Markets have always referred to the buying and selling of > goods in > > > a particular area. This is true of any definition. > > > > I guess we're back to Paul Ireland as Humpty Dumpty: "When I use a > > word, it means just what I choose it to mean -- neither more nor > > less." Unfortunately for your argument, economists and political > > theorists have been using the word "market" to refer to an > > overarching, non-geographically, specific mechanism for many years, > > and it's unlikely that the rest of the world is going to flush > > everyone from Marx to Menger to Mises down the toilet just because > you > > demand that they do so in order to make your arguments work. > > > > > 4. The government was given control of the borders and > protection of > > > the markets when the government was created by "We the people" > and as > > > long as we have a government (as long as there are people), it > will > > > retain control of such. > > > > > > 5. See the U.S. Constitution. > > > > I wasn't alive, or in Philadelphia, in the 1780s when the government > > and the Constitution were created by a convention and ratified by > some > > politicians. Nor have I received from my ancestors any compelling > > instructions which would in any way make me responsible for, or > > responsible to, or bound by, that convention, those politicians, or > > their quackings to each other. > > > > All of the above aside, the fact that something is "constitutional" > is > > irrelevant to whether or not it amounts to an initiation of force. > You > > claimed you had proven/would prove the latter, not just do a piss- > poor > > job of trying to prove the former. Care to take another stab at it? > > > > Tom Knapp > > >
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