government is a consentual authority now or even when the
constitution was ratified. Yes there were and still are private
communities and private towns formed by true mutual consent but many
of them made a mistake of obtaining a Municiple Corporation Charter
which they often assumed was similar to a business corporate Charter
and in some states they were very similar. That started to change big
time after 1868 Iowa judge ruling giving almost total state
government authority over the Municiple Corporations.--- In
[email protected], "kiddleddee" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In [email protected], "Paul" <ptireland@> wrote:
> >
> > I never spoke about imaginary lines. I spoke about real, tangible
> > lines, that limit the powers of various legitimate governments.
>
_____________________________________________________________________
>
> I'm not sure, but I think that freedom of movement is one of
> those "natural rights" which are at the core of libertarian thought
> and that would include the freedom to move your property as well.
As
> such, it is a right that no government can encroach upon.
> _____________________________________
> The
> > people of America (whether you were one of the original signers
of
> the
> > Constitution or any of the millions who were born into it) granted
> > legitiamate power to the government to regulate the goods that
enter
> > this country.
> >
> > To determine whether any law is legitimate all one must do is ask
> what
> > would happen if you didn't have a government.
> ____________________________________________________________________
>
> Not a very libertarian criteria, methinks, but then I am not a
> scholar in such matters. I think a better criteria for determining
if
> a law is legitimate might be whether it protects or encroaches upon
> individual liberty.
> _____________________________________
>
> If there were a
> > community of people who each owned land and these people agreed to
> > protect each other from violence, attacks, etc., they could also
> agree
> > that nobody from outside thier community would be allowed to sell
> > goods within the community they own,
> ____________________________________________________________________
>
> It seems to me to be quite a leap (though not at all surprising
given
> the subtlety with which collectivist thinking can seep into the
> arguments of even the most liberty minded among us) to go from
> a "community of people [I would have said 'individuals'] who each
> owned land [presumably you mean that each of the people owned
his/her
> own land]" to "the community they own". There is a huge difference
> between the two.
> ____________________________________
>
> without paying a fee to the town
> > to cover the cost of having police, judges, lawyers, etc. to
ensure
> > that the business they conduct isn't fraudulent, theft, etc.
>
_____________________________________________________________________
>
> Precluding, of course, any sort of arrangement whereby each
merchant
> (individual) hires his own protection and lawyers and, in the case
of
> a dispute over the "legality" of a business transaction, hires a
> private judge (omsbudsman, mediator, adjudicator or whatever), you
> would prefer to give the "tyranny of the majority" the power to
crush
> the individual liberty of the merchants (individuals) who may
> have "voted" against such a scheme in the first place? In other
> words, your community is not one of individuals who each own land,
> but rather a community of "townspeople" (or whatever other
> collectivist identity you want to give them.)
> _____________________________________
>
> > Since the people who own property in the town can do this, it is
> > logical that the people of the whole country can do it too. And
> when
> > this country was created and the foundation of our laws was made
> (all
> > people born after this and who live within America are also bound
to
> > it) through a Constitution, they granted power to the government
to
> > collect such a fee. Nobody has a right to bring goods from
outside
> > the community to sell them just because they happen to own the
goods
> > they bought. In fact even if they own a home in the community,
the
> > agreed upon laws state that if THE GOODS come from out of town,
the
> > fee must be paid. No amount of ranting or shouting on the part
of a
> > person trying to bring goods from out of town into town to sell
> grant
> > him the right to do it. He is held to the laws of the town, even
if
> > he bought property in the town after the laws were made.
>
_____________________________________________________________________
>
> It would seem to me that he would be held to the laws of the town
> only if his contract for the purchase of the house (or some other
> contract which he agreed to sign) made him so. (I understand that I
> am talking in hypotheticals, since obedience to the state is in
> reality a prerequisite for living anywhere these days).
> __________________________________
>
> > The same is true of the Constitution. Whether you agree with it
or
> > not, you are held to it. If you don't like it, change it or get
the
> > hell out. Those are your only choices. Too bad if you don't
like
> it.
>
_____________________________________________________________________
>
> I take it you disagree with Lysander Spooner's notion of the
> longevity of contracts - or his contention that the United State
> Constitution even is a contract. I personally don't care much for
> being subjected to loyalty oaths in order to be able to live
> anywhere. I will defend the United State Constitution to the extent
> that it can be used to hobble the power of the federal government,
> but just because it "gives" the power to regulate foreign commerce
to
> the federal government, doesn't mean that the federal government
has
> to regulate foreign commerce - or that it would even be proper for
it
> to do so.
>
> Viva la revolution! Power to the state, eh, Paul?
>
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