Strawmen and red herrings rebutted via interspersed comments below --- In [email protected], "Eric Dondero Rittberg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > So Terry, are you saying that it has nothing to do with our culture, > and their hatred for us as a people, and everything to do with our > foreign policy? >
Extremist hatemongers there, as well as here, are always recruiting for the 'holy crusades' As Eric's former employer, US Rep (R) Ron Paul says (see below quote), it's US foreign interventionist policies that MAGNIFY the ability of violent authoritarians to recruit for their holy wars. > If we just pulled out of every spot on the globe, and became > complete isolationists, do you honestly think at that point the > Radical Muslims would just leave us alone? > Since 'complete isolationists' is NOT what's proposed your pathetic attempt at a strawman fails. LIBERTARIANISM promotes free trade which is NOT 'complete isolationism' Violence prone 'Radical Muslims' will continue to promote hate, jast as violence prone authoritarians do in America. It's best to NOT act as their ENABLERS! > Remember, we would still have satellite TV. They would still be > exposed to our Hollywood movies, Hip Hop music, sexy blondes, and so > forth. Even if we completely pulled out and became isolationist. > Actually, most of 'them' (Muslims) think that stuff is kinda cool :) > You don't think they'd still hate us for our culture? > Violent authoritarians everywhere (here and there) HATE 'freedom' cultures anywhere; no need to be Muslim for that to be the case. > Didn't one of them say a few days ago that they wanted to "re- > establish the Islamic Republic from Iraq to Spain..." > Yeah, and religious nuts in America want a 'Christian' theocracy here too. Shall we kill them? :) > You willing to just sit back and let Spain fall into the hands of > the Radical Muslims? Maybe the rest of Western Europe, as well? > > Barcelona not a very important city to ya, huh? > > Ahh, the 'chicken little' approach to world perspective... > > > --- In [email protected], "Terry L Parker" <txliberty@> > wrote: > > > > And now for some context.... > > > > > > USA presence in the Persian Gulf helps extremists to recruit for > the > > holy war > > > > Said US Rep Ron Paul (R) in Congress Sept 25, 2001 > > > > Muslims see this as an invasion and domination by a foreign enemy > > which inspires radicalism. This is not new. This war, from their > > viewpoint, has been going on since the Crusades 1000 year ago. We > > ignore this history at our own peril. > > > > The radicals react as some Americans might react if China > dominated > > the Gulf of Mexico and had air bases in Texas and Florida. > Dominating > > the Persian Gulf is not a benign activity. It has consequences. > The > > attack on the USS Cole was a warning we ignored. > > > > Furthermore, our support for secular governments in the moderate > Arab > > countries is interpreted by the radicals as more American control > > over their region than they want. There is no doubt that our > policies > > that are seen by the radicals as favoring one faction over another > in > > the long lasting Middle East conflict add to the distrust and > hatred > > of America. > > > > The hatred has been suppressed because we are a powerful economic > and > > military force and wield a lot of influence. But this suppressed > > hatred is now becoming more visible and we as Americans for the > most > > part are not even aware of how this could be. Americans have no > > animosity toward a people they hardly even know. Instead, our > > policies have been driven by the commercial interests of a few. > > > > And now the innocent suffer. > > > > MoreAt http://www.house.gov/paul/congrec/congrec2001/cr092501.htm > > > > > > > > > > Current Wars: Israel / Palestine - Promises and Betrayals > > > > History Channel documentary on how British double-dealing during > WWI > > ignited the conflict between Arab and Jew in the Middle East. > > > > "We must expel Arabs and take their places." > > -- David Ben Gurion, 1937, Ben Gurion and the Palestine Arabs, > Oxford > > University Press, 1985 > > > > "We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land > confiscation, > > and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its > Arab > > population." > > -- David Ben-Gurion, May 1948, to the General Staff. From Ben- > Gurion, > > A Biography, by Michael Ben-Zohar, Delacorte, New York 1978 > > > > Much more and RealMedia Video internet playback at > > http://johnmccarthy90066.tripod.com/id315.html > > > > > > > > > > Americans have been drawn into a violent senario in the middle > east. > > > > a FUNDAMENTAL USA Libertarian 'access' point of this issue is the > US > > govt taxpayer subsidy to the state of Israel and others in the > > region. These huge anual subsidies are both a lure and an > enablement > > for the more 'thug' like folk in that part of the world to become > > powerful. As a result, harmful policies abound. > > > > Americans have been made a target as a consequence of US govt > > taxpayer subsidies that make oppressors harder to overthrow and > > reduces resistance options to the point that 'our' innocents can > ALSO > > become the 'collateral damage' of what are percieved to be the > > remaining 'self defense' tactics by 'them' Misunderstandings along > > with a perspective that discounts concerns about 'collateral > damage' > > innocents manifests on all sides of this US govt taxpayer > subsidized > > violence. > > > > see http://www.house.gov/paul/congrec/congrec2001/cr092501.htm > > > > > > These are some of the reasons why THE 'consistent libertarian' > > position is to end ALL US govt taxpayer subsidy to ALL middle east > > rulers! > > > > "the Minaret of Freedom Institute is to educate Muslims on the > > importance of liberty and free markets to a good society, while > > educating non-Muslims about the beliefs and contributions of Islam > > and the political realities of conflict between the two cultures" > > MoreAt http://www.minaret.org/ > > > > Live&LetLive.1998.05.02: > > Libertarian national Muslim figure, Dean Ahmad of www.minaret.org > > publishes 'Islam and the Discovery of Freedom' > > on the 50th anniversary of the creation of the modern state of > > Israel; > > and takes live unscreened calls from viewers on this 1 hour TV > show. > > RealMedia Playback > > http://txliberty.dyndns.org/inetpub/wwwroot/webfiles/LL980502.rm > > > > > > FROM: AustinLibertyInterNet Radio/TV > > at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LibertyProspects/links > > > > (Due to popular demand, the system is often too busy to respond; > so > > try back often. Right click playbacks to 'save target as...' to > > download selections to your computer for replay later at your > > convenience and as often as you want) > > > > > > Kingdom of Heaven (Download ONLY) > > Ridley Scott ("Gladiator") directed this sweeping epic about a > > blacksmith (Orlando Bloom) who joins the Crusades and tries to > > achieve peace between Muslims and Christians. Liam Neeson, David > > Thewlis, Jeremy Irons, Edward Norton, Eva Green. Cast & Credits: > > Orlando Bloom, Liam Neeson, David Thewlis, Jeremy Irons, Edward > > Norton (2005) > > > http://txliberty.dyndns.org/inetpub/wwwroot/webfiles/KingdomOfHeavenV > H > > .wmv > > > > > > NOTE: if any of these LoRez internet playbacks stimulate your > > interest in getting a clearer copy, please 'Google' that selection > to > > locate a legal source if one is not otherwise given already. > > > > > > PBS: Holy Warriors > > Parts 1&2: This look at the Third Crusade, which found Richard the > > Lionhearted striving to reclaim Christendom's holiest city, > > Jerusalem, from the Muslim leader Saladin, reveals the facts > behind > > the lore, including how Saladin---often portrayed as a barbarian-- - > > was an educated man from a culture more sophisticated than > Richard's. > > Included: comments from author John Gillingham ("Richard I"); Dr. > > Youssef Choueiri (University of Exeter); and Suhail Zakkar, a > > professor at Damacus University. (2005) > > > http://txliberty.dyndns.org/inetpub/wwwroot/webfiles/HolyWarriors.wmv > > > > > > > Crusades in the 'Holy Land' > > 3 hour recording picks up just after the first 'Christian' crusade > > takes Jerusalem by invading the heartland of Arab territory > > http://txliberty.dyndns.org/inetpub/wwwroot/webfiles/Crusades.wmv > > > > HistoryChannel: a. Crusades in the 'Holy Land' > > part 1 of 2 is two hours of four > > http://txliberty.dyndns.org/inetpub/wwwroot/webfiles/Crusades1.wmv > > > > HistoryChannel: b. Crusades in the 'Holy Land' > > part 2 of 2 is two hours of four > > http://txliberty.dyndns.org/inetpub/wwwroot/webfiles/Crusades2.wmv > > > > > > Lawrence of Arabia (Download ONLY) > > The restored version (almost 4hrs) of David Lean's epic about T.E. > > Lawrence (Peter O'Toole), who led the Arab revolt against the > Turks > > during WWI. Prince Feisal: Alec Guinness. Sherif Ali: Omar Sharif. > > Auda Abu Tayi: Anthony Quinn. Allenby: Jack Hawkins. Turkish Bey: > > Jose Ferrer. Brighton: Anthony Quayle. Dryden: Claude Rains. > (1962) > > > http://txliberty.dyndns.org/inetpub/wwwroot/webfiles/LawrenceOfArabia > H > > .wmv > > > > Lawrence of Arabia: The Battle for the Arab World (Download ONLY) > > PBS 2hr documentary providing much insight to today's middle east > > turmoil. Biography of T.E. Lawrence (1888-1935), the dashing > British > > officer who fought alongside Arabs in their quest for independence > > from the Ottoman Empire during World War I, and who was > immortalized > > in David Lean's 1962 masterpiece, "Lawrence of Arabia." The real > > Lawrence (seen here in atmospheric re-creations and in Lowell > Thomas > > newsreels) was emotionally troubled (one of the interviewees is a > > psychologist) and he had good reason to be: The Arabs he fought > > beside were being deceived by his British superiors. And one > legacy > > of this duplicity is today's Middle East situation. (2003) > > > http://txliberty.dyndns.org/inetpub/wwwroot/webfiles/LawrenceArabia.w > m > > v > > > > > > Making `Syriana' > > A look at "Syriana," a 2005 political thriller focusing on > multiple > > levels of the global oil industry. The film stars George Clooney, > > Matt Damon and Jeffrey Wright, and was written and directed by > > Stephen Gaghan, who won a Best Screenplay Oscar for "Traffic." > (2005) > > > http://txliberty.dyndns.org/inetpub/wwwroot/webfiles/MakingSyriana.wm > v > > > > > > > > > > > > FROM: AustinLibertyInterNet Radio/TV > > at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LibertyProspects/links > > > > > > (Due to popular demand, the system is often too busy to respond; > so > > try back often. Right click playbacks to 'save target as...' to > > download selections to your computer for replay later at your > > convenience and as often as you want) > > > > > > Featured in AustinLibertyInterNet Radio/TV > > Some more recent additions, upgrades or items otherwise of special > > interest; before they are re-distributed to other folders in this > > collection. > > > > > > > > NOTE: if any of these LoRez internet playbacks stimulate your > > interest in getting a clearer copy, please 'Google' that selection > to > > locate a legal source if one is not otherwise given already. > > > > > > > > > > Also watch for more announcements at > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TerryLiberty/ > > > > > > > > > > Look for me (especially every Sunday eve) as: > > > > TxLiberty on Yahoo Messenger & MSN Messenger > > > > Terry Liberty Parker on www.Skype.com > > (supports multiple platforms like > > MAC & Linux along with Windows) > > > > and maybe AustinLiberty on AIM > > > > > > > > > > 'PeerCasting' continuously now as 'AustinLibertyInterNet' > > via 'Yellow Pages' at www.PeerCast.org > > > > Distributed networking like www.PeerCast.org may enable people to > > create an alternative to govt licenced & controlled broadcasting. > > That can be useful when promoting things that challenge, or may be > > inconvenient to, established authority :) > > Please test this (at various times as needed) as an audience member > > (or even another 'caster) and let me know of your experience(s). > > > > > > ExploreAt http://www.peercast.org/ > > get a very small self installing program > > then select 'yellow pages' > > to find 'AustinLibertyInterNet' webcasting > > as an experiment by me in 'distributed networking' > > then please let me know of your experience > > > > > > > > > > -Terry Liberty Parker > > AND Find More Free On-demand Playbacks On-line via > > AustinLibertyInterNet Radio/TV > > at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LibertyProspects/links > > VoiceCall 1.512.462.1776 > > > > every Sunday 6:30pm (central) to ? > > I host informal discussion > > to which all are welcome > > who want to consider ideas & issues > > of Liberty & Justice for ALL > > in Hickory St Grill at 8th & Congress, Austin TX > > Look for me, MyPicAt http://profiles.yahoo.com/txliberty > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Eric Dondero <ericdondero@> > > wrote: > > > > > > Thwarted plot may have been `the Big One' `Classic al-Qaida' > plan > > biggest in scope, ambition since Sept. 11 Charles Rex > > Arbogast / AP > > > An unidentified traveler deposits her lipstick into a bin with > > other items banned for air travel as she prepares to fly out of > > Chicago's O'Hare International Airport on Thursday. > > > View related photos > > > var hasRelatedPhotos = 'true';if (hasRelatedPhotos=='true') > {var > > vRPL = document.getElementById("viewRelatedPhotosLink");if (vRPL! > > =undefined) vRPL.style.display = "";var vLRPG = > > document.getElementById("linkRelatedPhotos");var vLIRPG = > > document.getElementById("linkImgRelatedPhotos");if (vLRPG) {if > > (vLIRPG) vLIRPG.href=vLRPG.href;}} getCSS("3088867") > > > NBC VIDEO > > > > > > > > > Terror plot foiled > > > Aug. 10: London police say they foiled a plot to blow up > airliners > > traveling to the U.S. using explosives smuggled in hand luggage. > > NBC's Rehema Ellis reports. > > > Today show > > > > > > > > > getCSS("3053751") > > > Slide show > > > > > > > > > Air travel snarled by terror plot > > > European and American travelers face increased airport security > > following a foiled British terror plot. > > > > > > > > > > > > var cssList = new Array(); getCSS("3053751") > > > Related Stories > > > | What's this? > > > Latest twist in the World Trade Center battle > > > Talk Transcript: 'World Trade Center' > > > Terrorism: From Al QaedaPlots and Promos > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > var cssList = new Array(); getCSS("3053751") > > > Most Popular > > > Most Viewed Top Rated Most E- > > mailed U.K.: Plot to bomb U.S.-bound planes foiled > > > Chertoff: Threat `suggestive of an al-Qaida plot' > > > Swiss bank takes `deposit and forget' to extreme > > > Passengers deal with heightened security > > > Thwarted plot may have been `the Big One' > > > Most viewed on MSNBC.com > > > > > > BP admits knowledge of corrosion problems > > > Discoverer of `Van Allen Belts' is dead > > > Was the BP pipeline problem preventable? > > > Sludge, lack of testing cited in pipeline failure > > > Twins tucked into separate beds for first time > > > Most viewed on MSNBC.com > > > > > > U.K.: Plot to bomb U.S.-bound planes foiled > > > Chertoff: Threat `suggestive of an al-Qaida plot' > > > Organic food: Is it worth the extra money? > > > Passengers deal with heightened security > > > Addiction switching: Quit smoking, but binge? > > > Most viewed on MSNBC.com > > > > > > pop_pushTabBox('boxB_3053751'); > > > > > > > > > > > > News Analysis > > > Updated: less than 1 minute ago > > > function UpdateTimeStamp(pdt) { var n = > > document.getElementById("udtD"); if(pdt != '' & n & > > window.DateTime) { var dt = new DateTime(); pdt = dt.T2D > > (pdt); if(dt.GetTZ(pdt)) {n.innerHTML = dt.D2S(pdt, > > ((''.toLowerCase()=='false')?false:true));} } } > UpdateTimeStamp > > ('632908229678800000'); > > > > > > Its scope was ruthlessly ambitious, causing destruction > officials > > say would have been "unimaginable." The alleged plot to take down > > several U.S.-bound planes with liquid explosives appears to be > unlike > > anything the world has seen in years. > > > Counterterrorism officials said Thursday the London plot > appears > > to bear the fingerprints of al-Qaida, and may have been "the Big > One" > > they have been dreading since Sept. 11, 2001, particularly as the > > five-year anniversary of the carnage approaches. > > > More than 20 people have been jailed, terror threat levels > have > > been raised to some of their highest levels, and hundreds of > flights > > have been canceled worldwide. > > > Story continues below ↓ > > > --------------------------------- > > > advertisement ad_dap(250,300,'&PG=NBCMSN&AP=1089'); > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > "The scope or the magnitude of this attack is much larger than > > previous attacks," said Rohan Gunaratna, a terrorism expert at > > Singapore's Institute of Defense and Strategic Studies. > > > He added that everything known so far points to involvement by > > Osama bin Laden's terror group. > > > "It is a classic al-Qaida tactic. It is a hallmark of al- Qaida > to > > carry out coordinated, simultaneous attacks, and the aviation > domain > > is certainly known to al-Qaida. They have obvious experience in > > working around that system and extensive knowledge of the aviation > > domain." > > > `International in scope' > > > U.S. Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff echoed those > > sentiments, saying the attack "was sophisticated, it had a lot of > > members and it was international in scope." He added that: "It was > in > > some respects suggestive of an al-Qaida plot," but cautioned that > the > > investigation was still under way. > > > There have been dozens of thwarted plots around the world > since > > the Sept. 11 attacks, and several that were murderously > successful. > > Suicide bombers killed 52 people in London on July 7, 2005, 58 in > two > > attacks in Istanbul, Turkey, in 2003, and 202 in Bali in 2002. > > Islamic radicals killed 191 people in Madrid on Mar. 11, 2004, > then > > blew themselves up days later when police were closing in. > > > > > > Click for related content > > > > > > U.K.: Plot to bomb U.S.-bound planes foiled > > > U.S. raises threat level to `red' for first time > > > Passengers deal with heightened security in U.S. > > > > > > > > > > > > While al-Qaida's call for global jihad clearly acted as > > inspiration, there has been no direct evidence that bin Laden or > his > > No. 2, Ayman al-Zawahri, had advance knowledge of those attacks, > that > > they helped plan them, or that they provided financial or > logistical > > help to those who carried them out. > > > The group's failure to match the destruction it inflicted in > the > > Sept. 11 attacks has led to speculation that a global dragnet that > > has forced bin Laden into hiding and ensnared many of his most > > trusted deputies may have degraded al-Qaida's abilities. > > > Analysts said Thursday that is a theory to be believed only at > > the world's peril. > > > Attempt at 'the Big One'? > > > The airline plan had the potential to dwarf the attacks of > recent > > years killing hundreds, perhaps thousands. > > > It also appears to have involved far more extensive planning > and > > expertise. > > > Counterterrorism agents have been tracking the alleged > plotters > > for months, and made arrests in London and its suburbs, as well as > > Birmingham. A British police official said the suspects appeared > to > > be "homegrown," though it was not immediately clear if they were > all > > British citizens. getCSS("3053751") > > > In June 1995, U.S. and Filipino authorities > uncovered > > a plot very similar to the one revealed Thursday in the U.K. > > > In that plot, called the "Bojinka Plot," bombs were to be > placed > > aboard 11 jumbo jets and detonated by timing devices as the planes > > flew over the Pacific Ocean, killing an estimated 4,000 people. > > > Most of the jets were to be American carriers and most of the > > dead would have been Americans. > > > The bombs were small, using a Casio watch as a timer and > contact > > lens bottles filled with nitroglycerine. They were to be secreted > > behind the wall panels in the plane's lavatory. > > > The bombs would have been timed to go off over a number of > hours > > to heighten the terror. > > > The plan, also called the "Day of Hate," was conceived by > Ramzi > > Yousef, the mastermind of the first World Trade Center bombing, > and > > his uncle, Khalid Sheik Mohammed, the mastermind of 9/11. > > > Only a fire in Yousef's Manila apartment thwarted it. Mohammed > > later modified the plan, took it to Osama bin Laden, and it became > > the blueprint for the 9/11 attacks. > > > > > > - Robert Windrem, NBC News Investigative Producer > > > > > > > > > Magnus Ranstorp, a terrorism expert at Sweden's Center for > > Asymmetric Threat Studies who has done extensive research into al- > > Qaida's efforts to recruit in Europe, said the foiled plot in > > Britain "could very well have been an attempt at 'the Big One."' > > > Andrea Nativi, a researcher at the Rome-based Military Center > for > > Strategic Studies, said the London plot resembled that of Sept. > 11, > > 2001, in its ambition and was entirely different in scope from > other > > terror schemes of recent years. > > > "By comparison, the London subway attacks look like child's > > play," he said. "The new element here is their cleverness in > trying > > to overcome the new security systems installed after 2001 ... No > one > > can really expect to pass security checks with explosives in their > > pocket, they had to look for a plan B." > > > `These people are obsessed' > > > Rodolfo Mendoza, a police intelligence official in the > Philippines, > > said the "modus operandi" is the same as al-Qaida has used in the > > past and he should know. > > > Mendoza was among the law enforcement officers involved in > > thwarting a plot by al-Qaida terror mastermind Ramzi Yousef this > > one way back in 1995 to use liquid explosives to blow up a dozen > > airliners as they flew across the Pacific Ocean to U.S. > destinations, > > including Los Angeles, San Francisco, Honolulu and New York. > > > Like al-Qaida's decade-long effort to bring down the World > Trade > > Center in New York, first in 1993 and then, disastrously, in 2001, > > the latest plot to blow up commercial airliners reveals the > group's > > unwavering resolve, Mendoza said. > > > "These people are obsessed," he said. "They will try and try > and > > try again to accomplish their mission." > > > © 2006 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This > material > > may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Libertarian Republicans > > > > > > Fiscally Conservative, Socially Tolerant & Pro-Defense! > > > > > > Dondero is a US Navy Veteran, former Libertarian Party > National > > Committeeman, fmr. Senior Aide to US Congressman Ron Paul R-TX, > and > > Founder of the Republican Liberty Caucus. > > www.mainstreamlibertarian.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > ForumWebSiteAt http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Libertarian Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Libertarian/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
