Squaders,
I thought I'd try to summarize the results of Roger's two questions.
Roger's two questions asked if the MOQ levels existed ndependent of the
intellect and whether or not the levels were created or discovered. These
are superb questions because the answers help show "where you're at" with
regard to MOQ. Really only the second question was necessary for that, but
the first question served as a "check", a necessary one because it was in
some cases the more telling one. Good going, Roger.
I would argue there are only two ways to answer the two questions, and they
are:
1) all POVs are intellectual POVs: yes
2) levels were created or discovered: created
Denis, Glenn, Roger
or
1) all POVs are intellectual POVs: no
2) levels were created or discovered: discovered
Magnus, Bo, Dave B, Horse, Ken
Dave B. didn't actually vote! But I'm guessing he would vote this way.
Forgive me if I'm wrong, and if I am I think I'll throw in the towel!
Bo actually answered "no, created" but I think this is a problem with the
word "created" and it can be traced back to Pirsig's use of it.
Denis answered "yes, Mu". I thought about answering "Mu" but upon further
reflection decided not to. It's not quite complete to say "We create our
discoveries. We discover our creations." It's better to say "the thing we
create stands a chance of being discovered (later)", and in that light the
question *can* be answered.
Roger thinks all reality is a dialectic invention. I answered with him but I
don't agree with this. I answered the question from the world's perspective.
The world has not accepted MOQ (yet), so MOQ is provisionally a creation.
Personally, I think there is enough I either don't understand about MOQ, or
I just disagree with (I often can't tell the difference), that I err on the
side of safety and still call it a creation of the mind.
Horse brought up a nasty, nasty paradox for those who answered "created":
"Intellectual Value is one of the 4 levels. But if the levels are a creation
of Intellectual value then how did Intellectual value appear?" Only if the
levels were discovered can you avoid this paradox. Horse: "So the existence
of the levels was discovered after Intellectual value was created and in
turn discovered its own existence." Nice.
Jonathan M. answered "Foul", and I couldn't follow his links, so I don't
know what he thinks.
John B. answered "no, created", like Bo did. But I did not understand his
post enough to feel comfortable putting him in one camp or the other. Sorry,
John.
So what conclusions can be made about these two camps? The "created" camp is
interesting because these folks either
1) misunderstand MOQ. This is easily forgivable, by the way, and the forum
can help.
2) understand MOQ, wish they agreed with it but deep down don't. In other
words, they don't agree with MOQ but REALLY want to, and they have a hard
time admitting it, especially to themselves.
3) understand MOQ, see its potential, but disagree with it, or at least some
key aspect(s) of it.
The "discovered" camp is interesting because these folks either
1) understand MOQ and, being excellent students, recite just what Professor
Pirsig wants to hear.
2) understand MOQ, wish they agreed with it but deep down don't. In other
words, they don't agree with MOQ but REALLY want to, and they have a hard
time admitting it, especially to others.
3) understand MOQ and have truly entered its mythos.
And so all people from both camps are hoping they're a 3), right? :)
Please take these conclusions with a good dose of humor but also a little
introspection.
Glennn
MOQ.org - http://www.moq.org
