On Thu 03 Nov 2016 at 10:37:36 (+0100), Hans Åberg wrote: > > > On 3 Nov 2016, at 03:04, David Wright <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > On Wed 02 Nov 2016 at 22:13:54 (+0100), Hans Åberg wrote: > >> > >>> On 2 Nov 2016, at 21:08, David Wright <[email protected]> wrote: > >>> > >>> On Wed 02 Nov 2016 at 20:10:39 (+0100), Hans Åberg wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> On 28 Oct 2016, at 21:48, David Wright <[email protected]> > >>>>> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>> On Fri 28 Oct 2016 at 11:22:00 (-0700), Tobin Chodos wrote: > >>>>>> Forgive me if this is a too-easy issue for the list, but: is there a > >>>>>> way to > >>>>>> define a time compound time signature such as 4/4 + 1/3? That is, the > >>>>>> measure is four quarter notes long plus one triplet eighth note. > >>>>> > >>>>> Isn't this just 13/8? Three triplet eighth notes make a quarter note. > >>>>> So it's 3+3+3+3+1 all over 8, and the notes will be written out as > >>>>> four dotted quarter notes and an eighth note per measure. > >>>> > >>>> Indeed, 12/8 may be complicated notationally if the beats of length 3/8 > >>>> are divided into twos and fours, so 4/4 might be preferred. > >>> > >>> Now that would be interesting. Are the last three notes of the first > >>> bar realistically performable? OTOH splitting the long notes into > >>> threes would be straightforward to perform (and to write in 13/8). > >> > >> It is, if the tempo is not too high, and one devices a method for counting. > >> > >>> The only 13/8 I can recall off-hand is an uncomplicated 6/4+1/8. > >> > >> At moderato, 1/4 = 120, 13/16 is performable counting on 2s and 3s. One > >> example is Krivo Sadovsko horo (Bulgaria), 13 = 4+5+4, 4=2+2, 5 = 2+3: > >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3jCuUWnwM28 > >> Another is Ispayche horo, 13 = 3+2+3+2+3 > >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbU2za0rbzs > >> > >> At higher tempo, one may need to count on 3s, 4s, and 5s, especially when > >> clapping hands: > >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aecsGYwtVJM > >> This is a Leventikos, in video video, it is in 16 = 4+2+3+4+3, but the > >> clap hands 4+5+4+3. > >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leventikos > > > > Correct me if I'm wrong (I'm not familiar with these dances), but > > these are just groupings of steady 16th notes, are they not. > > Yes, in the definition of the meter, in respons to your question whether it > might be performable. 13/8 and even 13/16 is performable at moderato counting > on the 1/4s, though I have no example of the 3+3+3+3+1 occurring naturally.
But the three notes I referred to weren't in 13/8 or 13/16 because the last 3 of 3+3+3+3+1 (in 13/8 time) was a made into a duplet. > > My example wasn't. > > Then one add another level on the musical line. One example how this occurs > metrically is the Leventikos in 12. > I don't know what "another level on the musical line" means. What I was pointing out was that we have 13/8 consisting of three dotted crochets followed by a duplet (two in the time of a dotted crochet) followed by a quaver. The relationship of these notes is 6 6 6 3 3 2 and I think most people would struggle with getting that last note exactly the correct length. Of course, if you adopt a pace where you can form that pattern by grouping 26 rapid claps or whatever, then it can get simpler, but I was talking in the context of straightforward note values as sung by, say, a classical singer. > >> This Leventikos is also performed in 12 = 3+2+2+3+2, with quadruplets on > >> the 3s - se my other post in this thread. > > > > OK, the quadruplets add another layer of complexity. The note > > durations are now 3+3+3+3+ 4+4+ 4+4+ 3+3+3+3+ 4+4 / 48. > > So taking this Leventikos pattern, I've bent the "4/4+1/3" so > > that it contains similar tupleticity, to coin a nonce word. > > Yes, indeed. In the Leventikos, the quadruplet pattern occurs consistently. > When performing, there are slower 1/16th contrasted with faster ones. Some > performers have triplets on the 2s, and quintuplets occur in Balkan music as > well. So it can be more complex. > > > I've broken the 13/8 time signature into the appropriate groups, > > 3/8+3/8+3/8+3/8+1/8. I've followed this with the 4/4/+1/12 > > time signature's equivalent notation for the same durations. > > The actual rhythm of the individual notes in both cases is > > 4+4+4+ 3+3+3+3+ 4+4+4+ 3+3+3+3+ 4 / 52. > > A problem with this meter is that the 1/3 at the end is fairly short, so it > may be distorted by metric time bends: there is a tendency in Balkan music to > shorten the measure at the end. Hey, that's my point. You call it "metric time bends" and that's fine in the context of your musical examples. > So the question is how to bring out the triplet nature. Otherwise replacing > the 1/3 with 1/4 or 1/2 might do well, from the practical point of view. The > meter 9 = 2+2+2+3 is very common, so at faster tempo, your meter may sound > like this one. Some examples: > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a-2HVFc4k_k > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78ycWoNozLY I think you're on a different journey. I'm not trying to "bring out the triplet nature" in anything. Perhaps you were misled by my second sentence, "Three triplet eighth notes make a quarter note." The "triplet" in that sentence refers back to the OP's "the measure is four quarter notes long plus one triplet eighth note". "One triplet eighth note" defines a duration of time (which the OP appeared to get wrong in any case). One note cannot form a triplet. Writing four dotted crochets followed by a quaver, in isolation, has nothing tripletty about it. It's four steady beats and a kick. We only use that notation normally when we intend to subdivide it in a tripletty manner, usually crochet-quaver pairs (or add that in another part). That's what makes it tripletty. > > At the bottom are the versions with undivided notes, with > > the 1/12 notes represented in the only way I can think of. > > > > One interesting thing that popped out of my 3/8 notation is > > that the odd quaver at the end of each bar can be linked to > > the three quavers in the next bar. The upshot is that the > > overall rhythm is a repeated (4-slow 4-fast 3-slow 4-fast). > > Syncopations are common in Balkan music, also on the ornamental level. > > > The same rhythm is contained in the 4/4+1/12 notation, but > > is it easy to spot? You could make it obvious by writing > > 4:2⅔ > > ┌———————┐ over it, and leave people to ponder whether its > > speed is the same as the triplet's. Lets' see, 2⅔ is 8/3 > > so 4:(8/3) is 4*3:8 is 12:8 is 3:2. Success. > > > > Having that 1/8 quaver sitting next to the other three makes > > the rhythm quite friendly. If the first beat of the bar is > > an undivided dotted crochet, that last quaver is much > > harder to time correctly. Of course, we have no idea what > > the OP wanted to set to their "4/4+1/3" signature, how it > > would be divided etc. > > The choice may depend on whether the the 1/4s are divided into triplets or 2s > and 4s. There may be no choice to be made. Perhaps the OP wants four beats and a kick, and nothing more. > You might write out both versions, for convenience of the musician. So might > have a supporting percussion line with triplets on the 1/4s in the meter 4/4 > + 1/3, which the other musicians can follow. Then the 4s might be divided > into 2s and 4s. Well you might. But I would be reluctant to put a score in front of somebody with a quaver having 1:⅔ written over it, or with time signatures that didn't have powers-of-2 denominators. I guess there are people here for whom this is normality. My question to them is why don't they start inventing a glyph hierarchy for note division by three. We could eliminate a lot of tuplets and dots! Cheers, David. _______________________________________________ lilypond-user mailing list [email protected] https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
