Linux-Advocacy Digest #461, Volume #28 Thu, 17 Aug 00 20:13:03 EDT
Contents:
Re: Notebook/Windows rebate? ("Colin R. Day")
Re: Notebook/Windows rebate? ("Colin R. Day")
Re: Open source: an idea whose time has come (Steve Mentzer)
Re: Anonymous Wintrolls and Authentic Linvocates - Re: R.E. Ballard says Linux
growth stagnating
Re: I'm out of here. Best wishes to all of you!
Re: I'm out of here. Best wishes to all of you!
Re: Is the GDI-in-kernel-mode thing really so bad?... (was Re: Anonymous Wintrolls
and Authentic Linvocates)
Re: Anonymous Wintrolls and Authentic Linvocates - Re: R.E. Ballard says Linux
growth stagnating
Re: Fragmentation of Linux Community? Yeah, right! (Steve Mentzer)
Re: Fragmentation of Linux Community? Yeah, right! (Steve Mentzer)
Re: Anonymous Wintrolls and Authentic Linvocates - Re: R.E. Ballard says Linux
growth stagnating (R.E.Ballard ( Rex Ballard ))
Re: Is the GDI-in-kernel-mode thing really so bad?... (was Re: Anonymous Wintrolls
and Authentic Linvocates) (Donovan Rebbechi)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Colin R. Day" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.systems,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.misc,comp.os.linux.misc,comp.os.linux.portable
Subject: Re: Notebook/Windows rebate?
Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 19:27:47 -0400
Ray Chason wrote:
> "Colin R. Day" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> >But isn't an OEM of Windows bound to the computer? Selling the
> >OS separately in private may be a good idea, but doing it publicly
> >over the net is exposing your butt to the wrath of Microsoft.
>
> A German court recently ruled that this was legal. That, of course, is
> only of help if you live in Germany.
>
> http://www.infoworld.com/articles/hn/xml/00/07/07/000707hnunbundle.xml
I'm in the US.
Colin Day
------------------------------
From: "Colin R. Day" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.systems,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.misc,comp.os.linux.misc,comp.os.linux.portable
Subject: Re: Notebook/Windows rebate?
Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 19:29:10 -0400
"B. Joshua Rosen" wrote:
> Dell seems to charge much more for a machine with Linux then it does for
> the same system with Windows,
But is it the same hardware? Does the Linux machine have a winmodem
(Lucent has Linux drivers), etc.
Colin Day
------------------------------
Crossposted-To: gnu.misc.discuss,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: Open source: an idea whose time has come
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Steve Mentzer)
Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 23:33:19 GMT
>Let's take these events one by one:
Ok...
>
>(1) Open-Sourcing StarOffice
>
>StarOffice was previously available on a "free beer" licence. Now it is
>being open sourced. This will make it future-proof: the software will
>never go away, and will always get upgraded to work with new environments,
>so long as a (small) minimal number of users are still using it.
And do you think that the minimal numbers of users supporting it are going to
continue to work for free? Someone has to pay the piper eventually.
>
>(2) Gnome foundation
>
>Why would major hardware companies set up the Gnome foundation? So they
>can ship the Gnome desktop environment on computers, especially Unix
>computers, that they sell. Note that there have been prvious efforts
>to produce a common GUI for Unix boxes: the Common Desktop Environment.
>But Gnome has an advantage over CDE: it is open source, which means that
>firstly, it has got a lot of developer effort behind it, without
>attracting large amounts of corporate money, and secondly open source
>means that no company can shaft another member of the consortium by
>stopping them using proprietary enhancements. Goodbye competition,
>hello co-opetition.
>
>The Gnome desktop they will produce includes the Gnome base software,
>StarOffice (now called Gnome Office), IBM's Sash development tool,
>and Evolution, a competitor to MS Outlook.
>
>A beta release of this system is likely to be out later this year, with
>a fully integrated version next year.
Until the API's are standardized and there is a consistent inter-process method
of communicating between apps (similar to OLE), it will never catch on. One of
the strengths of windows is inter-app compatibility. The ability to go into
turbotax and copy a bunch of text, and paste it into MSExcel with two keyclicks
and some mouse movement is pretty powerful. I know there are facilities to do
this in the current desktop environments, but **all** apps need to support a
common framework.
X, Motif, KDE, Gnome, etc etc have tried so hard to remain so modular and
flexible that they obfusciated and complicated the long-term vision of a GUI.
It should make things EASY TO DO. KDE is really, really cool So is Gnome. But
users want apps to work as easy as they do under Windoze. This is an
unescapable fact. Some native KDE apps are really great. But there is a long
way to go.
>
>(3) Microsoft re-imaging rip off
>
>If you are a MS corporate customer, you have Windows 2000 on a PC, and
>you re-install the OS, MS want you to pay them again for the software.
>The charge is $117 to $157. This is, of course, a blatant rip-off only
>possible because of MS's dominant monopoly position.
What are you talking about? If you purchase a license of Win2k, you have the
right to install that OS on one PC. You can install it 1000 times if you want.
As long as it is on the same PC.
>
>Be scared Microsoft, be very scared.
>
Linux developers better start understanding what the users want if they want to
succeed on the desktop.
------------------------------
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Anonymous Wintrolls and Authentic Linvocates - Re: R.E. Ballard says
Linux growth stagnating
Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 15:47:13 -0700
Reply-To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Nathaniel Jay Lee <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> Long ago, Drestin Black <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> uttered the
following:
> >I state for the record and without any qualification that I do not have
ANY
> >financial motives for supporting Microsoft.
> [snip]
> >My company and I uses and resells some MS products and we profit from
doing
> >this. THAT is how I profit from "MS doing well."
>
> Find the contradiction?
Find it? How could anyone miss it in the original post?
------------------------------
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: I'm out of here. Best wishes to all of you!
Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 16:06:45 -0700
Reply-To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Nathaniel Jay Lee <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> >
> > Nathaniel Jay Lee <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> > news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> >
> > > You're happily married? God I feel sorry for your husband. He
probably
> > > comes home every night to a different personality and a different
'mood'
> > > within that personality. Tell me something, how does he feel about
your
> > > multiple personalities and overall childish behavior?
> >
> > It is not just a marriage, it is an adventure!
>
> I wonder if each personality considers the husband cheating if he is
> with another of the personalities. On the positive side (for the
> husband) he has a nearly endless supply of lovers, he just doesn't get
> to choose which one he is with at any one time.
But wait! What if, the huband and the wife and the childern are all the
same physical person? Do they ever get to meet each other.
If one of the female personalites ever got mad enough at one of the male
personalities for cheating to kill him, would it be suicide, murder, mass
suicide, or mass murder?
------------------------------
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: I'm out of here. Best wishes to all of you!
Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 16:10:07 -0700
Reply-To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Nathaniel Jay Lee <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> Tim Kelley wrote:
> >
> > Nathaniel Jay Lee wrote:
> >
> > > You're happily married? God I feel sorry for your husband. He
probably
> > > comes home every night to a different personality and a different
'mood'
> > > within that personality. Tell me something, how does he feel about
your
> > > multiple personalities and overall childish behavior?
> > >
> > > Well, I suppose he never sees it. After all, you wouldn't want anyone
> > > you actually 'know' to see this side of you (or these sides of you).
> >
> > Her husband is only one more of his personalities. Actually,
> > steve/claire/heather/keys88 is a guy, so we really have a
> > personality recursion loop where Steve is talking though claire
> > (his wife) about his husband (steve?).
>
> You know, you're probably right. I would suppose that the kids are all
> personality splits too. One thing about it, you would never be lonely.
Another idea, if Claire Lynn is really quiting COLA, what is to stop the
rest of them from continuing?
------------------------------
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Is the GDI-in-kernel-mode thing really so bad?... (was Re: Anonymous
Wintrolls and Authentic Linvocates)
Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 16:27:24 -0700
Reply-To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Christopher Smith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:8nha35$d28$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:8nh80n$q6c$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> >
> > Christopher Smith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> > news:8ng5vn$6ft$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > >
> > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> > > news:8ng5jh$uv4$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > > >
> > > > Christopher Smith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> > > > news:8ne7hg$bk2$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > > >
> > > > > Sheesh. First you use TWM, and now mc running in an *xterm* ?
> > > >
> > > > No, I never said I was using TWM.
> > >
> > > My bad, it was fvwm, was it not ?
> > >
> > > > > And you wonder why people accuse you of "cheating" ?
> > > >
> > > > If the finctionality is equivalent, where is the cheating?
> > >
> > > Because the functionality *isn't* the same - that's the point.
> > >
> > > > > Explorer can and has done that since IE4.
> > > >
> > > > Again, talking about the Windows Explorer (explorer.exe) NOT
Internet
> > > > Explorer.
> > >
> > > It is normal explorer, using the IE component from within it.
> > >
> > > Or would you prefer good ol' wheel-reinventing and have FTP
implemented
> in
> > > explorer *and* internet explorer ?
> >
> > What version of Windows Explorer are you considering?
>
> IIRC, you can do this once you've installed IE4 (and its "shell
> integration") on whatever version of Windows you are running.
AH, but not in plain vanillia Windows Explorer until you install Internet
Explorer 4 and the shell integration, right? I was not considering that
hybrid version of Windows Explorer, I was just considering the standard
unpatched version.
So in that reguard it is nice to see that Windows is again playing catchup
with Linux. Since the combination of Linux, X, fvwm, and mc has supported
that feature since before IE4. WIthout forcing any of those features on
anyone who would not benefit from them.
------------------------------
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Anonymous Wintrolls and Authentic Linvocates - Re: R.E. Ballard says
Linux growth stagnating
Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 15:51:33 -0700
Reply-To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Craig Kelley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> "Mike Byrns" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>
> Yes, but we have a choice under Linux of whether we want to
> significantly add to our program's bulk, or to just use the one-line
> fork() call. Forking is fairly scalable, but not as scalable as
> threads in most situations. The problem is, 90% of the time (my time,
> anyway) you don't care if the process is extremely scalable and you
> can ditch a bunch of complexity by using processes instead.
And if using fork() ends up consuming too many resources, you can just fork
out for a more powerful platform! <g> Sorry, just couldn't resist.
------------------------------
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Fragmentation of Linux Community? Yeah, right!
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Steve Mentzer)
Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 23:37:49 GMT
In article <8ng3jn$vif$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, [EMAIL PROTECTED] says...
>
>So, to all you Windows advocates, who have claimed that the Linux/Open
>Source communities will fragment and drown in quarrelling:
>
>http://www.computerworld.com/cwi/story/0,1199,NAV47_STO48629,00.html:
>
>"Unix vendors adopt Gnome desktop
>
>By DOMINIQUE DECKMYN
>(August 16, 2000) Desktop Linux gained momentum on the first day of
>LinuxWorld in San Jose, as vendors including Red Hat Inc., Hewlett-
>Packard Co., IBM, Compaq Computer Corp., Sun Microsystems Inc. and VA
>Linux Systems Inc. joined to form the Gnome Foundation."
>
>Not only is Gnome manifesting itself as a popular Desktop environment
>in Linux - Gnome seems to bind different UNIX vendors together, where
>we all know that the (commercial) UNIX commuity is traditionally a
>fragmented one.
>
>In your face, Windows advocates! Linux fragmentation my butt!
>
So, you have one Linux distro company. Three computer manufacturers, and a
Linux systems reseller.
Hmmm.... So, let me get this straight. Every company is in this for free.
Neither IBM, Compaq or HP want to make money, right?
Bud,, money makes the world go round. Idealistic motives usually go south when
the holy dollar makes it's presence felt. Expect the same result here.
------------------------------
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Fragmentation of Linux Community? Yeah, right!
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Steve Mentzer)
Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 23:40:06 GMT
>
>A KDE programmer at the LinuxWorld Expo told me that the
>two groups certainly are cooperating, e.g., to insure that
>the apps of each desktop system will run on the other.
>This even includes writing wrappers for each other's
>component facilities (that allow, for example, a live
>spreadsheet to be embedded in a wordprocessor document).
>So a Gnome spreadsheet can be part of a KDE document, or
>vice versa.
>
Why not just define a common framework. Where there are wrappers, there will
always be compatibility issues. The desktop environment is already fragmented.
You have two factions. KDE and Gnome. Until they unify, there will always be
problems.
------------------------------
From: R.E.Ballard ( Rex Ballard ) <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Anonymous Wintrolls and Authentic Linvocates - Re: R.E. Ballard says
Linux growth stagnating
Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 23:32:39 GMT
In article <p8Xm5.18872$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
"Drestin Black" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> "R.E.Ballard ( Rex Ballard )" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:8nfes0$9ck$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> <snip>
> > You have given a non-denial denial.
[snip]
> > Do you deny, without
> > qualifications, that you have any financial motives for supporting
> > Microsoft?
>
> I state for the record and without any qualification
> that I do not have ANY financial motives for supporting Microsoft.
[snip]
> My company and I uses and resells some MS products
> and we profit from doing this.
> THAT is how I profit from "MS doing well."
If you're dealing exclusively with MS products, platforms and
software, I'd say that you have a huge financial incentive
for promoting Microsoft over Linux or UNIX.
If on the other hand, you also use and resell UNIX, Linux, and/or
Mac products and to those platforms, you would be more credible as
an unbiased source.
Ironically, as my web site and web page describe, not only do I
have professional experience with Microsoft products and services,
but I also have extensive professional experience with UNIX and
Linux. I've been in the industry for over 20 years.
I use Microsoft products. Some of them I like, some of them
I dislike mildly. A few, I really hate.
There are some projects (like trying to create
a service based on NT 4.0 that is supposed to support
tens of thousands of concurrent users on Windows NT.
Each NT server has practical limits defined by drive latency,
network latency, contention for shared resources (huge objects)
and contention for memory - that Linux/UNIX simply doesn't have.
Windows 2000 has reduced and elminated many of these bottlenecks
structurally, yet Microsoft is still putting "new wine in old
wineskins" - in this case, trying to pass huge dynamic objects
through a stream/message optimized server.
I'm actually looking at throwing Cygwin onto a Win2000 server.
I'd have the benefits of Linux (Cygwin compiles Linux source code)
with Win2000 (Cygwin runs the Linux code under Win2000).
But even with Win2000, there are performance, stability, managability,
and flexibility concerns that make me want to "hedge my bets" and
stick with Linux/UNIX oriented APIs, utilities, and programming
languages.
There are some products, like Internet Explorer 4.0 that were
such security holes that they turned a minimally secure workstation
into a promiscuious server that can breach fire-walls.
Explorer 5.0 provides security settings that deal with my objections,
but are defaulted to "slut mode". Furthermore, I've had trouble
getting the secure settings to "stick". It seems like even when
I try to set security tight, things get loosened up with reboots,
software installations, and sometimes for no good reason. It's a
bit spooky when you set IE 5.0 to no ActiveX, no trusted applets,
no VBScript, no Jscript, and no dynamic fonts, and you still find
that 3-4 days later, even though you've changed nothing on a secure
machine that is screen-locked after 1 minute - you discover that
everything is enabled.
Lately I've also had to deal with a start-up script at a client's site
that seems to turn all my hard drive partitions into administrative
shares (and I'm not even in their domain).
> Drestin Black
> (however, after writing a negative post
> about a linux distribution, the
> distributor never did offer to send me
> another free copy, so I *could* be
> considered to have been influenced by their actions... <grin>)
You even started with a FREE COPY of Linux? Oh well, I'll send
you a few copies if you'd like. :-). Personally, I keep buying
licensed copies and passing them on when I upgrade. I've got
a spare copy of SuSE 6.3...
(I also have 9 servers and 3 laptops that run Linux).
--
Rex Ballard - I/T Architect, MIS Director
Linux Advocate, Internet Pioneer
http://www.open4success.com
Linux - 43 million satisfied users worldwide
and growing at over 5%/month! (recalibrated 8/2/00)
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Donovan Rebbechi)
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Is the GDI-in-kernel-mode thing really so bad?... (was Re: Anonymous
Wintrolls and Authentic Linvocates)
Date: 17 Aug 2000 23:53:28 GMT
On Thu, 17 Aug 2000 16:27:24 -0700, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>> IIRC, you can do this once you've installed IE4 (and its "shell
>> integration") on whatever version of Windows you are running.
>
>So in that reguard it is nice to see that Windows is again playing catchup
>with Linux. Since the combination of Linux, X, fvwm, and mc has supported
>that feature since before IE4.
??? Windows 3.1 + the windows 3.1 file manager did the same thing. How
is Windows "playing catchup" ? What's your point ?
BTW, the GUI version of mc ( gmc ) wasn't usable when IE4 was released.
--
Donovan
------------------------------
** FOR YOUR REFERENCE **
The service address, to which questions about the list itself and requests
to be added to or deleted from it should be directed, is:
Internet: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
You can send mail to the entire list (and comp.os.linux.advocacy) via:
Internet: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Linux may be obtained via one of these FTP sites:
ftp.funet.fi pub/Linux
tsx-11.mit.edu pub/linux
sunsite.unc.edu pub/Linux
End of Linux-Advocacy Digest
******************************
