Linux-Advocacy Digest #461, Volume #30 Mon, 27 Nov 00 02:13:03 EST
Contents:
Re: Whistler review. (Matthew Soltysiak)
Re: C++ -- Our Industry... (Jacques Guy)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Matthew Soltysiak <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Whistler review.
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 06:14:06 GMT
Aaron, get a life. The guy likes Whislter, so be it. Leave him alone. In fact, i
like
it too. My eng. buddies and I love it. Beats the hell outta Linux for usability.
Take a
look a KDE2, ultimate bug shit edition. GNOME, ultimate bloat-ware and bug shit
edition. Both segfault quite frequently. So, what does this say about Whislter? More
commercial software that beats the hell outta the free crap software available for
Linux,
and it will ensure the continues future of Windows' domination over the industry.
'Nuff
said. Pay for software, yes, for people who don't pirate. People who do, it's smooth
sailing.
Now i can almost see you refuting my statement. Let me save you time. Don't bother.
You'll be wrong about 90 % of time. Have a nice day.
"Aaron R. Kulkis" wrote:
> Ayende Rahien wrote:
> >
> > I've finally gotten whistler (pro, 2296, beta 1), and I'm *liking* it.
>
> Junkie scores a new bag of heroin...and he likes it!
>
> Alert CNN!
>
> Clue for the fucking clueless:
>
> Ayende...you're a Monopolysoft addict....
>
> > For those of you who doesn't know what this is, whistler is an the new OS
> > (the one that will inherit both win2k & win ME) from Microsoft, destined to
> > finally eliminated the 9x line.
>
> We'ver heard this song and dance for the last 5 years...
>
> >
> > Here is my biased review.
> ^^^^^^
>
> Understatement of the week.
>
> > I'm going to limit myself to comments about the new GUI and features of the
> > OS, as this a Beta1, it's not yet appropriate to talk about performace and
> > stability yet.
>
> Why not? A beta-test Gould PT/X system had uptimes of over 10 weeks...
> and that was before we discovered hardware bugs on the memory boards!
>
> >
> > Starting with the install, you stick the cd in the drive, set the BIOS to
> > boot from the CD, and you are done.
> > Strangely enough, I have the system up and running without returning to the
> > BIOS to change the settings, and it's still working.
>
> Linux had this years ago. What's your fucking point?
>
> >
> > The installation itself is pretty similar to Windows 2000, blue screen in
> > text mode, and afterward the familiar wizard style.
> > The main difference is that it's now uses the "simpler start menu" as a
> > background.
>
> Fascinating....a new .bmp file.
>
> > Installation took little longer than an hour, most of the time to format a
> > NTFS HD.
> > After the text mode, which require some little knowledge in the computer's HD,
>
> This is *intuitive* ???
>
> What would happen if the average Joe LoseDOS-luser had to provide
> information about his HD before getting his LoseDOS machine to work?
>
> > the installer required very little input from the user, and did all the
> > configuration on its on.
>
> > The computer is win2k HCLed, btw.
> >
> > As a note:
> > For some reason, it thinks that I've multiply monitors, likely because I've
> > a TV-Out card. This doesn't seem to cause any problems whatsoever, so I
> > don't think I would bother to fiddle with it in the near future.
>
> Translation: Experienced has taught me that when M$ installations make
> erroneous assumptions, it's better to ignore it....because correcting
> the mistake causes even more severe problems.
>
> >
> > The new startup screen is cool, but I like the win2k one better, the win2k
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
> Big fucking deal. A startup screen does not an OS make.
>
> > one provide some (limited, but real) information on how much progress the OS
> > had in loading itself.
> > Whistler's startup screen provide no such information, in that, it's very
> > much like the win9x startup screens.
>
> I.e. Typical Microsoft no-information system.
>
> >
> > The system finished loading, and you get a pretty wizard like interface
> > which explained you how to use the computer (can't report much about this, I
> > quited this part when it started explaining how to you the mouse.), ask you
> > whatever you want to register at Microsoft.com, and help you setup a dial up
> > account.
> > Then you create users, You can create up to six users in this screen.
> ^^^^^^ ^^^^^'
>
> you misspelled "lusers"
>
> > I don't like this way very much, all the accounts you create this way are
> > admins, with no passwords set on them, and you get *no* warning about this.
>
> FUNDAMENTAL Security hole.
>
> And of course....nobody ever noticed this during the alph-test stage.
> IT's Monopolysoft. If you were expecting better, then you're a fool.
>
> > The user interface itself, for that matter, isn't very good comparing to NT or
>2000.
> > You can enter a user's name, and a picture, if you like, but that is about it.
> > Accounts are created without passwords by default, another thing I don't like.
>
> FUNDAMENTAL Security hole.
> And of course....nobody ever noticed this during the alph-test stage.
> IT's Monopolysoft. If you were expecting better, then you're a fool.
>
> > And when you login, all the accounts on the computer are presented to you,
> > which is another mistake.
>
> FUNDAMENTAL Security hole.
> And of course....nobody ever noticed this during the alph-test stage.
> IT's Monopolysoft. If you were expecting better, then you're a fool.
>
> >
> > I can see the reasons behind this, of course, as the whistler I'm using is
> > supposed to go to home users, where you rarely need such security measures,
>
> Stupid fucking assumption. Lose95 and Lose98 were supposed to be
> "for home users", too.
>
> > and there are probably ways to fix those things, which I'm currently
> > clueless about.
>
> You're clueless about a lot of things.
>
> > The biggest problem I've with this (all accounts being displayed) can
> > apperantly turned off quite easily (I've not tested it yet, though)
> >
> > Strangely enough, by default, the desktop don't display the "My Computer"
> > and "My Documents" icon folders.
>
> I'll bet that confused the shit out of you.
>
> > With those icons being probably the most important in handling windows, I'm
> > quite sure it's a bug.
>
> No...it was just a test to see how poor of an implementation would
> be tolerated by the brainwashed legion of fanatics like yourself.
>
> > Another bug I found is in the control panel>mouse>pointer options, where the
> > "Show location" option doesn't warp, so the "y." (at least I assume that it
> > what it's supposed to be) cannot be seen.
> >
> > The icons problem was fixed by right clicking the desktop, active
> > desktop>customise my desktop, btw.
>
> Again...HIGHLY intuitive.
>
> And of course....nobody ever noticed this during the alph-test stage.
>
> > I also recommend to use the "Proffessional" image as background to the
> > desktop, totally cool.
>
> The roof leaks, the front door won't shut, and the basement is
> caving in, the water and sewer lines are rusted through, and
> the gas leak in the basement could lead to an explosion at any
> moment...but by God, those are might fine looking curtains.
>
> >
> > The entire GUI is cool, for that matter.
>
> Cool LOOKING != functional.
>
> > It feel like a game or a flash applet.
>
> And your point is?
>
> > The login screen, for example, is in pastel colors, and you've a list of
> > users, with pictures near each name, and when your mouse is over a username,
> > all the other usernames fade out.
>
> This is of marginal utility at best....but typical Microsoft disk-space
> waste.
>
> > If you click a username, and it has no password, it moved to the center of
> > the upper half of the screen, and it would tell you what it's doing (3 - 4
> > seconds process) while it loads your settings.
>
> 3 to 4 SECONDS???
>
> Like what...your user settings are 30 MB or something?
>
> > If it has a password, it opens (open like a drawer, really cool) a box that
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
> As you can see, Ayende is completely fixated on whether or not
> his computer feels like a Nintendo machine or not.
>
> > ask you to enter the password.
> > On NT & 2000, you needed a *long* password to feel the password box, in
> > whistler, it takes very few characters for the password box to be full on
> > the black circles, so you've no indication whatever you are still typing.
>
> Wow. So, this is an improvement on both NT and 2000, huh?
> Or are you alleging that all of the alpha-testers COMPLETELY FUCKING
> MISSED this....i mean...obviously, if they knew about this shortcoming,
> the BRILLIANT programmers in Redmond would have taken the 30 seconds or
> so to change the constants to fix this for the next rebuild.
>
> so...now, the only question is....
>
> WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH MICROSHAFT'S ALPHA-TESTERS???
>
> Hint fucking hint!
>
> There are none. What Microsoft calls "Beta test" is actually
> the alphatest. After the alphatest is complete, Microsoft
> RELEASES for sale the Beta-test version, and calls it the
> production release.
>
> Why?
>
> Because fucked-head lemmings like Ayende are soooooo goddamned
> desperate to slurp anything that seeps out of Bill Gates's anus.
>
> > It makes sense, I assume, as it obscure password length to onlookers, and
> > it's no worse than unix no showing what you type at all.
>
> Actually, it is worse...because Microsoft's target market...clueless
> newbie lusers...will stop typing once the box is filled up...
>
> Which means that if this thing ever sells, there will soon be millions
> of boxes with 3- or 4-character passwords out there.
>
> Or...ANOTHER BIG FAT FREAKING SECURITY HOLE.
>
> >
> > I like the "simpler start menu", for now, at least.
> > It would take some getting used to, I suppose. But I suspect it can also
> > drive a person crazy, very easily. One thing that I already find annoying in
> > this is that you can't logoff without using the mouse.
>
> This from the same people who keep telling us that typing commands=evil
> and mouse-oriented point&click is the fountain of all that is good and pure.
>
> > And logging off is something that I think that I'll have to do quite often
> > in Whistler, at least in the first period.
> > You can revert back to the normal windows way, of course.
> >
> > Alt+Ctrl+Delete behave quite unlike what you expect.
> > In 9x, it brings you a list of running application, which allows you
> > (hopefully) to close them.
> > In NT/2000, it brings a list of options, which I find more practical than
> > the 9x one.
> > In whistler, you get "Task Manager", which NT/2000 users should be familiar
> > with.
>
> A distinction without a difference.
>
> > You can do everything you used to be abled to do with the NT ctrl+alt+del,
> > except change your password, which must be done throught the user settings
> > in the control panel.
> >
> > One of the coolest features in in Whistler is the ability to logoff and
> > leave all your current applications working.
> > User A log on, do some work, and has to go. He log off, and go away for some
> > time. User B comes along, log on, do his stuff until he is done, and then he
> > log off.
> > User A return, he log on, all his applications are intact, for those of you
> > who are familiar with NT/2000, it's similar to computer lock.
> > Infact, in Whistler, Locking the computer is very similar to Switch user.
> > One thing, though, if you play a cd and lock the computer, and log as
> > another user, you still hear the cd. I've to test it for other sound
> > programs, but I believe it's a CD related issue.
> > You can also log off completely, thus releasing the resources that you took.
> >
> > Those of you who are familiar with linux, it's similar to Alt+F#, only in
> > GUI.
> > It's a little more cumbersome to move between users, because you has to
> > logon to do so, but it's working.
> > Unfortantely, there are no virutal desktops, such as there is in Gnome &
> > KDe, which can be very useful.
> > There is something which is called "Clean up notification area" which may
> > provide similar ability. (The main reason for virtual desktop is to keep the
> > taskbar or whatever you call it from cluttering, this should solve this,
> > apperantly.)
> >
> > Whistler currently comes with IE & OE 5.6, which doesn't seem to offer any
> > big improvement over IE 5.5, at least on the surface.
> >
> > To my joy, the wide languague support from 2000 remained on Whistler. (Which
> > wasn't the case on ME, which really pissed me off)
> > Trying to change different settings proved quite easy, although tooltips are
> > too widely used, IMHO. But I can understand why they are neccesary, and they
> > proved to be handy.
> > Another problem is in the task bar, in normal winodws mode, the application
> > on focus has its tab in the spacebar pressed, which make it easy to detect
> > it.
> > On Whistler (professional skin), the tabs on the applications are
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
> Note: Name chosen to pander to egotistical novices.
>
> > highlighted, which takes getting used to. In the meantime, I get a lot of
> > windows minimized when I don't want them to because of this.
> > It's also hard to tell where one application tab is ending, and where
> > another begin.
> > And the scroll bars aren't a great idea either, white on pale gray is nice
> > if you bother to actually *look* at it, but who looks at a scroll bar
> > anyway? You want something that is easy for the eye to see.
>
> Classic Monopolysoft ergonomics and software design...
>
> > I like the skinning idea, but at the moment, I only have two (pro &
> > classic), anybody knows whatever there are more out there?
>
> Skins are for losers who think that changing a color palette (20+
> year old technique) is a significant new technology.
>
> >
> > The Explorer has been changed quite dramatically. Now you can call it
> > pretty.
> > And the help system has been given a face lift as well. The Win95 help got
> > the "Interface Hall Of Shame" award, I think that whistler's help system is
> > at least a runner up for "Interface Hall of Face" award.
>
> Who the fuck cares about that....does the new "help" actually
> provide any information (other than the blindingly obvious),
> or is it the same old Microsoft crap:
>
> Help.... disk partition
>
> a disk partition is a partition on a hard disk.
>
> Windows help = wasted disk space.
>
> > The entire GUI is very good, although I get a chuckle out of "Comments?" on
> > top of everything.
> > I wouldn't call Windows9x/NT pretty.
> > Useful, yes, and the 2000 GUI is much nicer then those before it, but
> > Whistler *is* pretty.
>
> I really don't know what the fuck the book says, but the cover
> sure is pretty.
>
> >
> > From the overall easiness of working with the system, I've to say that MS
> > took a long hard look at the iMac success, which was largely based on its
> > look and "just plug it in" slogan.
> > And decided that they can do it better.
> >
> > I would refrain from commenting whatever they actually succeeded in that,
> > because it's still a beta, and because I don't have that much experiance on
>
> Wrong. Beta is what Microsoft sells when they announce the release.
> What you're looking at is ALPHA....see the many screw-ups and design
> flaws that you noted...design flaws that ANY competant alpha-testing-
> and-patching would have fixed a long time ago (because they involve
> trivial amounts of coding to fix).
>
> > Macs.
> > And practically none at all on an iMac or an iBook.
> >
> > However, in its current state, I have to say that Whistler is pretty awesome
> > UI-wise. I'll have to study it much more to find out if it can serve as more
> > than a toy.
>
> Yeah...
> making administrative accounts with no passwords is incredibly awesome....
>
> NOT!
>
> > Right now, I would rather use the beta than any win9x, including win98se.
>
> That's an incredibly startling indictment of who Lose9x line....
>
> > It's based on NT kernel, which mean it *can't* be as bad as the 9x line.
> > At the very least, it's going to be a cool workstation.
>
> The engine is shit, the exhaust leaks so bad that you'll die of
> carbon monoxide poisoning if you drive it for more than 10 minutes,
> but that sure is a damn good paint job, eh?
>
> >
> > For now, I think that there is a good chance that Whistler will be as good
> > from win2k as win2k was from NT.
>
> Define "good" in a way that doesn't rely on aesthetics.
>
> --
> Aaron R. Kulkis
> Unix Systems Engineer
> ICQ # 3056642
>
> H: "Having found not one single carbon monoxide leak on the entire
> premises, it is my belief, and Willard concurs, that the reason
> you folks feel listless and disoriented is simply because
> you are lazy, stupid people"
>
> I: Loren Petrich's 2-week stubborn refusal to respond to the
> challenge to describe even one philosophical difference
> between himself and the communists demonstrates that, in fact,
> Loren Petrich is a COMMUNIST ***hole
>
> J: Other knee_jerk reactionaries: billh, david casey, redc1c4,
> The retarded sisters: Raunchy (rauni) and Anencephielle (Enielle),
> also known as old hags who've hit the wall....
>
> A: The wise man is mocked by fools.
>
> B: Jet Silverman plays the fool and spews out nonsense as a
> method of sidetracking discussions which are headed in a
> direction that she doesn't like.
>
> C: Jet Silverman claims to have killfiled me.
>
> D: Jet Silverman now follows me from newgroup to newsgroup
> ...despite (C) above.
>
> E: Jet is not worthy of the time to compose a response until
> her behavior improves.
>
> F: Unit_4's "Kook hunt" reminds me of "Jimmy Baker's" harangues against
> adultery while concurrently committing adultery with Tammy Hahn.
>
> G: Knackos...you're a retard.
--
Matthew Soltysiak
Comp Sci/Soft Eng
ICQ: 3063118
email: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED]
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 06:28:47 +0000
From: Jacques Guy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: C++ -- Our Industry...
Charlie Ebert wrote:
> Management could not accept the notion of delaying
> the project for another year so all these peices
> could be fitted together properly and tested.
There you have it. Even on a personal-programming
level, it shows up, sorely. I program for myself
only. How often have I taken the shortcuts of
(1) not taking the trouble to think of clear,
informative identifiers for constants,
variables, procedures, etc.
(2) adding and adding and adding features
without stopping, taking a look back,
and restructuring everything as it ought
to.
The sorry humour of it is that there is
an excellent book on the subject. "Code
Complete". And it's published by...
Microsoft Press!
But I think I have learnt my lesson now.
I take my time, I try to think of consistent
names for those variables, etc. Seeing
that I started programming in 1974... yes,
it took me 26 years to come to my senses.
> The REAL KEY was you have to have experience with
> developing projects from the ground up.
And stuffing up time and again. The school of
hard knocks in other words.
> I disagree with you about 5 years. Microsoft
> will be gone in 5 years because of cost.
The situation, to my eyes, is very similar to
the US new-car market, about 30-40 years ago.
They were getting bigger, thirstier every
year, and I distinctly remember an article in
a car magazine, predicting that soon the
average car would pack 500HP (it may have been
"Popular Mechanics"). Then came the Beetle.
I must confess that I was quite surprised
when... it was in... wait, I was 17, it was
in 1961 then, I met an American soldier on the
train from Nantes to Le Mans, and he told
me he drove a Renault Dauphine back home and was very
happy with it. I thought all Americans drove
Cadillac-sized cars! Do they all use
IE-sized browsers too :-?
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