Linux-Advocacy Digest #567, Volume #28 Tue, 22 Aug 00 16:13:06 EDT
Contents:
Re: When it's time to not be nice... (was Re: Anonymous Wintrolls and (Roberto
Alsina)
Re: Anonymous Wintrolls and Authentic Linvocates - Re: R.E. (Roberto
Alsina)
Re: Would a M$ Voluntary Split Save It? (ZnU)
Re: When it's time to not be nice... (was Re: Anonymous Wintrolls and Authentic
Linvocates - Re: R.E. Ballard says Linux growth stagnating)
Re: Anonymous Wintrolls and Authentic Linvocates - Re: R.E. (Roberto
Alsina)
Re: Anonymous Wintrolls and Authentic Linvocates - Re: R.E. (Roberto
Alsina)
Re: GNOME/KDE issues (was: Come on, Jedi, where are you?) (Roberto Alsina)
Re: When it's time to not be nice... (was Re: Anonymous Wintrolls and Authentic
Linvocates - Re: R.E. Ballard says Linux growth stagnating) (Donovan
Rebbechi)
Re: Nothing like a SECURE database, is there Bill? (Bob Hauck)
Re: Nothing like a SECURE database, is there Bill? (Roberto Alsina)
Re: Anonymous Wintrolls and Authentic Linvocates - Re: R.E. Ballard
says Linux growth stagnating (Donovan Rebbechi)
Re: Windows stability: Alternate shells? (Bob Hauck)
Re: Nothing like a SECURE database, is there Bill? (Brian Langenberger)
Re: Anonymous Wintrolls and Authentic Linvocates - Re: R.E. Ballard
says Linux growth stagnating (Donovan Rebbechi)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Roberto Alsina <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: When it's time to not be nice... (was Re: Anonymous Wintrolls and
Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 16:17:00 -0300
[EMAIL PROTECTED] escribi�:
>
> Roberto Alsina <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>
> > Cool, I respect you for it. So?
>
> So, that provides evidence of the invalid assumptions that your attitude
> lead you to form.
Whatever.
> > There *is* a dicotomy.
>
> While that may be your view of things, it is not or at least has not been
> the reality of the Linux community.
"While that may be your view of things, it is not or at least has not
been
the reality of the Linux community."
> > Yawn.
>
> More flame bait?
Nope. An onomatopoeia indicating boredom.
> > I contribute to the first large software project
> > in Linux that started a trend towards making linux usable by more
> > newbies.
>
> The kernel? That was the first big project in Linux on which makes
> everything else possible. If you are talking about KDE, it is not Linux
> software, it is unix software, properly written it should work on any unix
> system that runs X--and perhaps other systems using X as well.
You are right, the "in Linux" doesn't belong there.
> > I care so much about newbies that I try to make them non-newbies
> > all the time.
>
> And disparage them at the same time?
I don't. Usually.
> > I use the words often. I had done so in this very thread already.
> > And in the message three posts ago in the thread, if you look.
>
> Using when discussing the email reply, it still suspicious. If you had not
> written it, that would not have been your reation to it. If your use that
> phrase as often as you seem to, it does not speak well of you and you can
> hardly be supprised at peoples reactions to you.
People's reactions to me are varied. However, notice how my reaction to
you is my fault, and people's reaction to me is ALSO my fault. Amazing
double standard you bear.
--
Roberto Alsina
------------------------------
From: Roberto Alsina <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Anonymous Wintrolls and Authentic Linvocates - Re: R.E.
Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 16:17:51 -0300
[EMAIL PROTECTED] escribi�:
>
> Roberto Alsina <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribi�:
> > >
> > > Roberto Alsina <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> > > news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribi�:
> > > > >
> > > > > Roberto Alsina <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> > > > > news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > >
> > > > > > I'm game, but be specific, or go fuck yourself.
> > > > >
> > > > > Thank you, you have proven my point for me in this issue.
> > > >
> > > > Whatever. It's a situation where anything I said would be
> > > > used against me, right? Fuck yourself is adequate, then.
> > >
> > > You proved the point reguarding your attitude by using what now appears
> to
> > > be your favorite vulgarity.
> >
> > My repertoire of english language vulgarities is small.
>
> A novel idea, don't use vulgarities at all.
Occasionally, vulgarity is the appropiate answer. Why should
I restrain my means of expression.
--
Roberto Alsina
------------------------------
From: ZnU <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Would a M$ Voluntary Split Save It?
Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 19:11:40 GMT
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, "Aaron R. Kulkis"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> ZnU wrote:
> >
> > In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, "Aaron R. Kulkis"
> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > > ZnU wrote:
> > > >
> > > > In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, "Aaron R. Kulkis"
> > > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > ZnU wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, "JS/PL"
> > > > > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > "ZnU" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > The "losers" under a Bush administration will be just
> > > > > > > > about everyone. Bush's proposed tax cut eliminates all
> > > > > > > > chance of paying off the national debt, yet it only
> > > > > > > > gives $43/year back to the average american family.
> > > > > > > > Where does the rest go? You guessed it: the top 2% or
> > > > > > > > so of the economic scale.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The president doesn't create the budget, he only has the
> > > > > > > power to approve it in it's entirety or return it to
> > > > > > > congress, now who has really been creating the budget
> > > > > > > deficit for the past 20 years? And who in the past four
> > > > > > > has managed to turn it (the deficit) around?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > If the Republicans did all the work to balance the budget,
> > > > > > why are they trying to damn hard to unbalance it?
> > > > >
> > > > > Are you, ZnU, smoking large amounts of crack before writing
> > > > > to USENET?
> > > >
> > > > Are you really denying this? In just the last few months the
> > > > Republicans have tried to pass two tax cuts that would
> > > > eliminate or significantly reduce the surplus, and Bush wants
> > > > to take things even farther.
> > >
> > > A surplus is merely another name for OVER-TAXATION.
> > ^^^^^^^
> >
> > You misspelled "deficit." All that interest ends up costing quite a
> > bit more in the long run.
>
> Interest is a result of debt which is a result of deficits cause by
> over-spending....
>
> The federal debt CANNOT Be paid off early like a home-owner's
> mortgage. The T-bills can ONLY be paid off when they mature. Anybody
> who has any knowledge of how the federal debt works is aware of this.
>
> Since you are blissfully unaware, it demonstrates that your are
> basically unqaulified to comment
You're setting up strawmen again. I haven't said a word about the
timeframe to pay off the national debt.
> bye bye
Figured you'd better leave before people notice you have nothing of
value to say?
--
This universe shipped by weight, not volume. Some expansion may have
occurred during shipment.
ZnU <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> | <http://znu.dhs.org>
------------------------------
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: When it's time to not be nice... (was Re: Anonymous Wintrolls and
Authentic Linvocates - Re: R.E. Ballard says Linux growth stagnating)
Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 12:04:35 -0700
Reply-To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Donovan Rebbechi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> On Tue, 22 Aug 2000 09:02:52 -0700, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> >
>
> >Well then your have a problem there. How can you know for certain when
you
> >are dealing with a programmer
>
> For practical purposes, you are dealing with a programmer when you are
> dealing with someone who contributes working code to your project, or
> perhaps another Linux project depending on the context.
>
> In other words, you don't just let an outsider "redesign" your project
> unless they're willing to back their designs up with code.
>
> >I don't subscribe to you view of programmers being lords and the users
being
> >peasents.
>
> Your deliberate attempts to misrepresent Roberto, who's a fairly well
known
> member of the community do very little for your credibility.
Emperor's new clothes.
------------------------------
From: Roberto Alsina <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Anonymous Wintrolls and Authentic Linvocates - Re: R.E.
Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 16:22:35 -0300
[EMAIL PROTECTED] escribi�:
>
> Roberto Alsina <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribi�:
> > >
> > > Roberto Alsina <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> > > news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > >
> > > > Mind you, I would apply just as esily those paragraphs to me as to
> > > > anyone
> > > > else: I HAVE been provided a OS for free, now I use it or I don't. I
> > > > improve it or I don't. I influence its development or I don't. And
> > > > that's
> > > > all there is.
> > >
> > > Do you mean that your developmental efforts were worthless?
> >
> > No.
>
> Then Linux was not given to you, as mana from heaven, you earned it by your
> efforts on its behalf. Correct?
No.
> > > Linux is free in that we can do as we please with a copy of it. We can
> > > install it on as many system as we please, we can give away as many
> copies
> > > as we please, we don't *have to* pay a monetary price for it. However,
> > > through our efforts we have earned the Linux OS, so Linux is not a gift
> to
> > > the plebs as your statement implies.
> >
> > Except for perhaps half a dozen people, I'd say we were given the OS.
>
> And you would be wrong. Who's efforts would you count and who would you
> discount? It took a heck of a lot more than just 6 people to create and
> maintain and debug and patch and document and advocate and promote and teach
> and assist and etc Linux into the OS now have.
Sure, it took more than 6. And we got more that we put in. Even
proportionally. I may have put some 30K in it, and got way much more
that that's worth of OS.
> > > > > > I must have missed it. No big deal anyway, since the argument died
> > > > > > already.
> > >
> > > > In the middle, I had reached an agreement with him to let the thread
> > > > die.
> > > > If the goal was to make me shut up about it, it was already done, thus
> > > > it made no difference. No big deal.
> > >
> > > As you know that thread did not die at that point after all, it
> continued on
> > > for a little but more so your comment cited here was contemporaneous
> with
> > > the discussion, which did die latter that same day.
> >
> > Nice of you to delete the original text.
>
> You point is what?
Where I was just saying that I was easy to shut up.
> > > The goal was never to make you "shut up", although I do feel that was
> your
> > > goal with us.
> >
> > Nope. Feel free to discuss anything you want. I'd just rather see
> > the effort spent somewhere else, but it's not my effort, so all I can do
> > is speak my mind about it.
>
> Oh please, don't feed me straight lines like that!
>
> This is a usenet newsgroup, that same as what has also been called
> discussion groups. This is were we discuss ideas. Ideas and discussions
> are the birth of the more tangible items. It is our right to discuss ideas
> that are being bandied about all too carelessly to the point of being
> considered a truism by some. If I seem something that I consider harmful to
> the Linux community I will not sit quitely by waiting for it to play itself
> out and then try to help pick up the pieces and set things right again. Not
> if expressing a little moderating views could help prevent the disaster in
> the first place. If you don't agree that discussions can be valuable, what
> are you doing here in the first place.
If you could please abstain from creating a whole worldview and then
assigning it to me, I will be more willing to enter rational debate.
> > > The goal on my side of the discussion and at least for my
> > > part. Was to try to convince you to see reason, in that we had honet
> > > concerns for the future of Linux, that we have a valid stake in the
> future
> > > of Linux, that not all badly implemented ideas are worth fixing sometime
> it
> > > is so badly conceived that it better to abandon it than wast time fixing
> it.
> >
> > Cool, let's go back to the example: Corel Linux's HW detection thing.
> > I said "don't use Corel Linux or fix it". Abandoning it was one of
> > the choices I suggested. We are agreeing.
> >
> > > I also had the goals of fostering the acceptance in the value of the
> > > flexibility unix and respect for the human over the hardware.
> >
> > I appreciate any human over any hardware, no need to convince me at all.
>
> Then you must agree that the Windows style of autodetecting hardware is
> wrong and having the behavior migrate into Linux is bad.
Depends on the implementation. I propose not to use it, or fix it.
> As I have stated
> before, autodetection should be performed at most during installation and
> only when the human responsible for the computer requests the computer to
> perform that act again. Even then it should be only to advise the human of
> what the computer thinks it has detected, permitting the human to override
> everything and anything BEFORE it become a part of the system's
> configuration. In short that automation should work in an advisory capacity
> only and submit to the human's judgement.
>
> No amount of fixing the autodetectors is going to help anything as long they
> are being deployed the way they are. Besides the autodetectors will never
> be accurate.
The autodetectors in sane platforms are adequate. Saying "never" commits
you
for way too long time.
--
Roberto Alsina
------------------------------
From: Roberto Alsina <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Anonymous Wintrolls and Authentic Linvocates - Re: R.E.
Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 16:28:56 -0300
[EMAIL PROTECTED] escribi�:
>
> Roberto Alsina <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribi�:
> > >
> > > Roberto Alsina <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> > > news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > >
> > > > Bullshit. I didn't say that. Go read the damn thread.
> > > > Whenever Nathaniel Lee said I was saying that, I said "no
> > > > I am not saying that, I am saying this other thing".
> > >
> > > cancel control messages can sure be handy.
> >
> > Are you saying I cancelled my own messages? I did not. Prove it
> > or apologize. In fact, I only have cancelled ONE message in the
> > years I have been in usenet, and it was not in this year.
>
> It certainly looks that way, your most damning statements have vanished for
> the news server long before the time they should have expired. However, if
> you have not caused that situation, I apologize.
I have not caused it, and I have no problem finding them. I don't take
half assed apologies. If you believe I canceled messages, it's easy to
check.
> > > > Here's what I want to say: You don't like the direction linux is
> going?
> > > > Work and fix it. It doesn't make any difference if you have
> contributed
> > > > in the past or not, really, you still need to work and fix it.
> > >
> > > No body has to work to fix any of this, if it was not broken by others
> > > first. In that case we were talking about somthing that is correct the
> way
> > > it is. You seemed to take the position that hey we can break anything
> we
> > > like and if you want it fixed, the way it was, then fix it back into
> working
> > > order again and don't bother me with your concerns.
> >
> > Nonsense. The previous version would still be there, so fixing would be
> > just a matter of downgrading.
>
> So you are saying that if we long time users have issues with the course of
> Linux development, our solution should be to relegate our computers to
> running outdated versions of the OS and/or its supporting software and
> become outcasts of the very community the we helped build.
I don't know about you, but I am a member of whenever comunity I am in.
If I don't like the way one is going, I try to change its course, but
if the course doesn't change, I am a member of another community where
the course is the one I prefer. No need to be an outcast. Noone is going
to take away your linux community membership if you refuse to run, say
Corel Linux.
> My how Animal Farmish of you!
Are you calling me a communist now?
> > I said, indeed that if you don't like Corel's HW detection, you can
> > either not use Corel, or fix it, and I stand behind that.
>
> That was just one sample of a much larger set of issues.
AFAIR, it was the only concrete example given.
The rest was generalities like "I don't want Linux to become
a windows clone".
--
Roberto Alsina
------------------------------
From: Roberto Alsina <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: GNOME/KDE issues (was: Come on, Jedi, where are you?)
Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 16:29:43 -0300
[EMAIL PROTECTED] escribi�:
>
> Roberto Alsina <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>
> >I may have too strong an ego to care.
>
> I will second that! ;-)
Hey, I am not ashamed of it ;-)
--
Roberto Alsina
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Donovan Rebbechi)
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: When it's time to not be nice... (was Re: Anonymous Wintrolls and
Authentic Linvocates - Re: R.E. Ballard says Linux growth stagnating)
Date: 22 Aug 2000 19:48:23 GMT
On Tue, 22 Aug 2000 12:04:35 -0700, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>> Your deliberate attempts to misrepresent Roberto, who's a fairly well
>known
>> member of the community do very little for your credibility.
>
>Emperor's new clothes.
Note: no rebuttal presented.
--
Donovan
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Bob Hauck)
Subject: Re: Nothing like a SECURE database, is there Bill?
Reply-To: hauck[at]codem{dot}com
Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 19:53:54 GMT
On Tue, 22 Aug 2000 15:14:31 GMT, Stuart Fox <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>Check it out Leon, Oracle ships with default admin passwords, MySQL
>ships with default passwords.
IIRC, you also can't make MySQL do anything unless you're root on the
local machine until you set up some passwords.
>If you are so unfamiliar with the product that you don't know that the
>first thing you do is change the default password (which is in the
>documentation), then you have no business installing or using it.
I guess that there must be a lot of MS-SQL admins who fall into that
category then...seems a few hundred of them got owned.
--
-| Bob Hauck
-| Codem Systems, Inc.
-| http://www.codem.com/
------------------------------
From: Roberto Alsina <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Nothing like a SECURE database, is there Bill?
Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 17:01:59 -0300
Bob Hauck escribi�:
>
> On Tue, 22 Aug 2000 15:14:31 GMT, Stuart Fox <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
>
> >Check it out Leon, Oracle ships with default admin passwords, MySQL
> >ships with default passwords.
>
> IIRC, you also can't make MySQL do anything unless you're root on the
> local machine until you set up some passwords.
Considering that you have to connect to the database to set the
passwords, they better leave you SOME open entry ;-)
--
Roberto Alsina
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Donovan Rebbechi)
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Anonymous Wintrolls and Authentic Linvocates - Re: R.E. Ballard
says Linux growth stagnating
Date: 22 Aug 2000 19:57:21 GMT
On Tue, 22 Aug 2000 11:54:01 -0700, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
>> > No body has to work to fix any of this, if it was not broken by others
>> > first. In that case we were talking about somthing that is correct the
>way
>> > it is. You seemed to take the position that hey we can break anything
>we
>> > like and if you want it fixed, the way it was, then fix it back into
>working
>> > order again and don't bother me with your concerns.
>>
>> Nonsense. The previous version would still be there, so fixing would be
>> just
>> a matter of downgrading.
>
>So you are saying that if we long time users
Part of your mistake is to assume that the fact that you are a "long time
user" means that the developers are obliged to provide you their services
for free. Clue: they are not.
> have issues with the course of
>Linux development, our solution should be to relegate our computers to
>running outdated versions of the OS and/or its supporting software and
>become outcasts of the very community the we helped build.
He didn't say anything of the sort. His point is that it is impossible for a
developer to "sabotage" software that you already have been given freely.
Your implication that a developer could sabotage your working Linux software
is indeed nonsense, as Roberto pointed out.
As for "running outdated versions", well, you know, what's to stop someone
updating forking and writing a "new version" ?
I'm afraid I don't get the bit about "outcasts" at all.
> My how Animal >Farmish of you!
Now you follow up your straw man with insults.
>> I said, indeed that if you don't like Corel's HW detection, you can
>> either
>> not use Corel, or fix it, and I stand behind that.
>
>That was just one sample of a much larger set of issues.
But that issue kind of sums it up. Speaking for myself, I dont' whine about
how Corel are "making an outcast" of me; even though I don't like their
distribution. The fact that someone writes software that you don't like doesn't
make you an "outcast".
--
Donovan
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Bob Hauck)
Subject: Re: Windows stability: Alternate shells?
Reply-To: hauck[at]codem{dot}com
Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 19:59:30 GMT
On Tue, 22 Aug 2000 17:26:29 GMT, Stuart Fox <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>I assume you're talking hundreds of gigabytes of database. An Exchange
>server with a 15GB database takes around five minutes to start.
Yeah, but how long does it take to stop? A week? Nevermind, I'm sure
they fixed that one in hotfix <mumble>.
--
-| Bob Hauck
-| Codem Systems, Inc.
-| http://www.codem.com/
------------------------------
From: Brian Langenberger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Nothing like a SECURE database, is there Bill?
Date: 22 Aug 2000 20:05:41 GMT
Roberto Alsina <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
: Bob Hauck escribi�:
:>
:> On Tue, 22 Aug 2000 15:14:31 GMT, Stuart Fox <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
:> wrote:
:>
:> >Check it out Leon, Oracle ships with default admin passwords, MySQL
:> >ships with default passwords.
:>
:> IIRC, you also can't make MySQL do anything unless you're root on the
:> local machine until you set up some passwords.
: Considering that you have to connect to the database to set the
: passwords, they better leave you SOME open entry ;-)
Fortunately, they do ;)
As I recall, MySQL ships with *no* password on an administrator
account named "root", though MySQL's root and the system root are
connected in name only. The installation tells you how to change
the password, even for RPM installs, IIRC. And, in a worst-case
scenario, MySQL runs under the user "mysql" which should
prevent an unsecured server from running amok on the system
should it be compromised.
Still, the Slashdot article was more about the media coverage
of one default password exploit versus another rather than
about default passwords themselves.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Donovan Rebbechi)
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Anonymous Wintrolls and Authentic Linvocates - Re: R.E. Ballard
says Linux growth stagnating
Date: 22 Aug 2000 20:08:10 GMT
On Tue, 22 Aug 2000 11:38:06 -0700, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>Then Linux was not given to you, as mana from heaven, you earned it by your
>efforts on its behalf. Correct?
Incorrect. Linux was available to most of the contributors before they
contributed. Therefore it was given.
>> Except for perhaps half a dozen people, I'd say we were given the OS.
>
>And you would be wrong. Who's efforts would you count and who would you
>discount? It took a heck of a lot more than just 6 people to create and
>maintain and debug and patch and document and advocate and promote and teach
>and assist and etc Linux into the OS now have.
Yes, but those people needed to have an OS to develop software for/on in
the first place, for the most part.
Sure, many people contributed to the OS, but most of them were given it
before they contributed
>> Nope. Feel free to discuss anything you want. I'd just rather see
>> the effort spent somewhere else, but it's not my effort, so all I can do
>> is speak my mind about it.
>
>Oh please, don't feed me straight lines like that!
>
>This is a usenet newsgroup, that same as what has also been called
>discussion groups. This is were we discuss ideas. Ideas and discussions
>are the birth of the more tangible items.
Nonsense. You can discuss all you like without creating anything worthwhile,
which a lot of usenet monkeys do; and you can create something tangible
items without any discussion.
> It is our right to discuss ideas
>that are being bandied about all too carelessly to the point of being
>considered a truism by some.
Sure, it's your right.
> If I seem something that I consider harmful to
>the Linux community I will not sit quitely by waiting for it to play itself
>out and then try to help pick up the pieces and set things right again. Not
>if expressing a little moderating views could help prevent the disaster in
>the first place.
Assuming of course that anyone will actually take you seriously. Talk is
cheap. Opinions are a dime a dozen. You can express your views, and a million
others can also express their views, but in the end, the people that
have the most influence are those that are willing to get off their asses
and do something.
> If you don't agree that discussions can be valuable, what
>are you doing here in the first place.
Speaking for myself, killing time. Discussions can be valuable, but I doubt
that anything that takes place in .advocacy substantially impacts the
direction that Linux takes.
--
Donovan
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