Linux-Advocacy Digest #155, Volume #29 Sun, 17 Sep 00 09:13:06 EDT
Contents:
Re: Inferior Engineering of the Win32 Platform (IE for Linux) (Peter Hayes)
Re: Because programmers hate users (Re: Why are Linux UIs so crappy?) ("Nigel
Feltham")
Re: Because programmers hate users (Re: Why are Linux UIs so crappy?) ("Nigel
Feltham")
Re: Because programmers hate users (Re: Why are Linux UIs so crappy?) ("Nigel
Feltham")
Re: How low can they go...? ("Stuart Fox")
MSNBC rigged poll for favourite OS
Re: Never tell me again that Windows is easy to install!!! It's a lie! ("MH")
Re: Anonymous Wintrolls and Authentic Linvocates - Re: R.E. Ballard
says Linux growth stagnating (T. Max Devlin)
Re: Another "feature" in IE discovered. ("MH")
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Peter Hayes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Inferior Engineering of the Win32 Platform (IE for Linux)
Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 12:12:09 +0100
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Fri, 08 Sep 2000 09:02:10 GMT, "Ingemar Lundin"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I do hope MS port IE 5-5.5 to Linux (as they have to Solaris) i want a
> *real*
> browser in Linux not that piece of crap Nutscrape.
Konqueror in KDE2?
------------------------------
From: "Nigel Feltham" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Because programmers hate users (Re: Why are Linux UIs so crappy?)
Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 12:36:57 +0100
>Agreed. But many, many more choices would be completely unreasonable
>and even nonsensical. The shell could easily maintain a list (in a
>user-accessible manner) of associations (though "index" has no
>extension, so it wouldn't work) and then ask which one the user
>wants at run-time; much like bash currently does filename completion.
>
>You'd type
>$list\ of\ songs.playlist
>and press [tab]
>then it would fill in the line with
>$xmms list\ of\ songs.playlist
>
So my win95 system must also be broken then as when I open a shell
(command.com) and type :-
note.txt
it is not auto changed to
notepad.exe note.txt
it also doesn't just open notepad with note.txt loaded.
It displays 'Bad command or file name' which is stupid as I can see the file
when I do a dir.
with my linux system (at least on kernel 2.4) I can associate txt files
(using misc binaries feature)
so they open with a suitable editor from within any shell so why cannot the
supposedly more
advanced windows product do this?
Not only this but as linux (and all types of unix) is modular you can always
write (or have written)
another shell which performs exactly in the way you require - you can even
use the source code
for an existing shell as a starting point - tell me where I can obtain
source code for command.com
to allow me to do this on windows?
>
>Then it depends on your view of the GUI. I don't think that a GUI should
>provide added functionality if it can help it.
If a GUI provided no added functionality then I would be able to mulititask
in
msdos or run outlook express without starting windows on top of dos?
>IOW, I don't think that associations belong in the GUI.
>
Where is that MS shell file association config file again?
>
>Unix counting on processes being one-off means that it's not possible
>to shut down the computer and retrieve the processes you had (with all
>of their state) after you reboot. By all rights, I *should* be able to
>reboot my machine right now and get back all of the machine state I
>left it in (including an open text editor window, and all the text I
>have typed in so far). None of this "saving" something *somewhere* and
>then manually retrieving it; I already know where my email is, it's on
>my monitor right in front of me! Why should this be destroyed just
>because I want to switch OSes for a moment?
>
Doesn't KDE do this (at least partially) - I know it does reopen any
applications
that were open at last logout but I am not sure if files in those
applications are
also reopened.
Again when was the last time that windows reopened all applications that
were in use
last time it was shut down (or more likely shut itself down with that nice
blue screen)?
>to users. Well, I'm interested in winning this class war for the
>users and if the other side gets hurt in the process, I don't care.
One of the original reasons for the existance of linux was to provide an
operating
system where nothing had to be used in the same way for all users as MS
often prove
than the one size fits all type of operating system often doesn't work for
many users.
I think most of what you suggest can be added to linux but it will still
have to be configurable
so the users can decide whether they want it to work your way or the
existing way - no point in
adding things to make it easy for one type of user if it makes it impossible
to use for other users.
Reopening all applications on a reboot (or logout and re-login) is not
always the ideal response - what
if you opened 20 or 30 applications and are logging out to quickly close
those applications, you would
hardly want to wait while they are all reopened again on relogin, on the
other hand if you are busy using
a few applications and need to leave the building for a while and logout for
security you do want them
reopened on relogin so it needs to be configurable at logout time which apps
will restore themselves
at login time.
>What's interesting to note is that programmers, as individuals,
>hurt themselves by waging this war against users and maintaining
>their, collective, superiority towards users. Programmers are sadled
>with an OS that's horrible to use and program for just so they can
>scare away users.
>
There is one good reason why the programmers write linux to work the way
they want - it is because
they are the ones who are going to be using it, at least to start with so
why would they write something
that doesn't fit the way they want to use their machines?
------------------------------
From: "Nigel Feltham" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Because programmers hate users (Re: Why are Linux UIs so crappy?)
Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 12:46:20 +0100
>I'm not so sure. There are lots of OS projects aimed at reliability or
>programming freedom, or "media", or all kinds of stuff that users never
>get to see. I have yet to find a single OS project aimed at enabling the
>structured exploration of the world, for lack of a better description.
>At this point in time, I honestly believe that I am doing something that
>nobody has ever attempted before. The closest thing that comes to it is
>Smalltalk, not exactly encouraging but I'll be happy if a thousand people
>use my OS in ten years time.
Good luck with your OS.
The reason people use linux is that they like to have a choice about what
they run on their machine and not join the 'you must run windows because
everyone else does' crowd. Same with BSD and BEOS users (the improved
stability of the non-ms choices probably helps a lot too).
The introduction of yet another operating sytem just adds to that choice and
I think that most sensible people here would welcome that increased choice.
On the negative side though it does mean that either application developers
must port their products to multiple operating systems or at least some
users
will have to make their machines multi-boot to be able to run everything
they
want to (better emulation of each-other's operating systems should help
here).
------------------------------
From: "Nigel Feltham" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Because programmers hate users (Re: Why are Linux UIs so crappy?)
Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 13:00:04 +0100
>When a user can wipe out everything with rm -rf, this is a failure of #2.
How many new or inexperience users actually know that this command
actually exists - a more likely occurence nowadays would probably be
to highlight all directories in root and hit delete (from within kfm as new
users would only know about the window manager their distro installed
as default and most use kde). Doing this should display a warning (at least
with default settings) which will put users off continuing the delete
process.
>When they can't delete anything without a stupid confirmation box, this
>is a failure of #1. The only acceptable solution is to have a logging FS
>that allows users to easily undo any operation (move, delete, overwrite,
>anything). And you're not going to find this in any spec, because creating
>such a specification would require more self-knowledge and self-worth than
>most people possess.
Perhaps someone here could write a suitable filesytem, preferably as an
addon
to the standard e2fs filesystem (maybe corel could do this as their distro
is the one
most aimed at inexperienced users)?
------------------------------
From: "Stuart Fox" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.lang.java.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: How low can they go...?
Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 12:45:54 +0100
"T. Max Devlin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>
> Check out the new sig, which Erik prompted me to realize I had not
> started using in COLA, yet.
>
> --
> T. Max Devlin
> *** The best way to convince another is
> to state your case moderately and
> accurately. - Benjamin Franklin ***
>
We'll look forward to your new posting direction then. When do you expect
to start posting moderately and accurately?
------------------------------
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: MSNBC rigged poll for favourite OS
Date: 17 Sep 2000 12:04:15 GMT
MSNBC has been running a poll asking its readers to vote on their
favourite operating system. The poll follows an article on Windows ME.
The facts:
(1) over two days of voting, on Thursday and Friday, 37000 votes were
cast, of which Linux had 38% in the lead, and Windows NT had 19%
(2) over 4 hours on Saturday morning, the total votes cast reached
100000, with Linux in last place, and NT reached a peak around 48%
(3) the figures do not add up. At one point Linux had 37% of 37000,
which works out to just over 14000 votes. But when the votes cast
reached just over 205000, the poll showed Linux had 6%, which is only
about 12000 votes. Some how Linux actually lost votes!
(4) the poll also asked readers to vote on whether they wanted to buy
Windows ME. There were over 9000 votes cast on this second poll when
Linux had 38% of the 30000+ votes of the favourite OS poll. But when the
votes cast on the favourite OS poll had reached 205643 votes, only 10069
votes had been cast on the second poll.
(5) Linux Today readers were asked by the editors to go and vote
on the poll. They did not advise them to rig it. Some readers did say
they would rig it, but we DO NOT KNOW how many actually did.
Nevertheless, the votes cast over the first 2 days of the poll, do not
show as dramatic a surge as the 4 hours of Saturday morning.
Here is a link to the story:
http://linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?ltsn=2000-09-16-003-21-OP-MR-MS
The issue here is not that some people may or may not rig polls. It is
that a major news provider like MSNBC (and MS) should use such results at
all to sway public opinion.
------------------------------
From: "MH" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.ms.windows.advocacy,comp.ms.windows-nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Never tell me again that Windows is easy to install!!! It's a lie!
Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 08:16:56 -0400
Funny, for a Linux user..who obviously has read TFM for Linux..you
obviously didn't read, or know anything about MS OS's. How long has everyone
else known of ANY OS manufacturer's recommended ram requirements and what
pure BS it is. Red Hat tells me I need 16 to run Linux. True, but have you
ever tried to Gnome with that much ram? They all play the same game. Get a
clue.
Read any review of WinME. You'll see the same thing, over and over and
over.
And you say you were looking for better performance? IF YOU HAD READ ONE
WORD ABOUT THE OS you would know NOT to expect that with WinME. That news is
EVERY WHERE.
What you had was a bunch of crap on your win98 box. 32 mb's of ram is old
news for windows. If you want to play the game, then play by the rules. You
can't be a dolt and act as an expert at the same time.
Or can you?
As for real mode DOS support. If you had read anything on WinME, you WOULD
HAVE KNOWN IT WASN'T SUPPORTED. So, you're no different than the 'windoze
lusers' you castigate. You didn't RTFM, do any research at all, and now here
you are, bitching and moaning just like the 'windoze lusers' you bitch
about.
You don't compile. Compiler reports error: -Cannot Create Object "sensible
human"-
"OSguy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> I have wasted a whole day putting on Windows ME from scratch on my
> daughter's computer (Celeron-350Mhz, 32M Ram). Her machine under
> Windows 98 just got too bogged down, and slowly but surely, all of her
> games and educational programs were getting too much for Win98 to
> handle. So this morning I completely wiped and reformatted her hard
> disk, then started the Windows ME installation. Two Hours later, it was
> over. The Windows Install program, of course, told me it would be 30-60
> minutes, but funny how it was 10 minutes to go for installation for
> about 25 minutes while it was installing.
>
> Linux has never taken me over 30 minutes to install on a machine.
>
> Here where the fun began. Once Windows ME fully started up, it couldn't
> find a driver for my jukebox-CD unit....in fact it couldn't find the
> drive, and I couldn't get WinME to understand that there is a CD Drive
> there. The insane thing is that the floppy disk used to boot and then
> install WinME from the CD Drive not only recognized my jukebox CD
> drive....it recognized ALL of the CDs in the drive. What type of morons
> have an install program with a driver much more advanced then the
> system? I sat there wondering why that driver on the floppy wasn't
> integrated at all in the Windows ME System. I spent a lot of time
> opening up the case of the machine and wondering what the h*LL is wrong
> with this ME garbage, then it hit me. The jukebox CD was on a separate
> IDE card creating the 3rd IDE port on the machine. Wondering if the
> problem was that WinME couldn't see the 3rd IDE port, I switched the CD
> to the second IDE port and took out the external IDE card. Finally, I
> had a CD. So, the Install floppy, and Windows 98 could recognize my
> external IDE, but WinME proper can't. What's wrong with this picture.
>
> Usually one something works under linux, I have no trouble keeping it
> working from upgrade to upgrade...the worst I have to do is to recompile
> the 'driver' again under the kernel version I'm using, and it works just
> fine. Also, If the Linux install can recognize the device, the fully
> installed linux distro can understand it too. And the kernel-2.4.0-test
> series understand additional IDE ports just fine.
>
> Of course, my 16-bit sound card which worked under Win95 & Win98 didn't
> work under WinME....why aren't I surprised? So I got to buy a new
> Soundblaster Card just so WinME would understand it.
>
> Somehow, I was under the impression WinME was supposed to be an updated
> Win98...and the box says it maintains compatibility with Win95 and
> Win98. Well, guess what? I found out that anything that installed its
> driver in the Config.sys section of DOS and expected its driver to be
> there before WinME comes up is now broken. WinME won't allow any DOS
> 'legacy' drivers in the system.
>
> Well, 12 hours later, I finally have a system working as good as it was
> before I wiped off the Win98 system, except now it goes to the disk a
> lot......Well, I have 32M Ram, the Windows recommended, but what's this
> note that says performance will improve with more memory? Has it ever
> occurred to Microshaft to tell anybody what the optimum amount of memory
> is for their system? Why must I try to flush that info out from all of
> the MS Blurbmeisters? So later this week, I'll be buying more memory.
>
> After this little episode, I really appreciate my linux machine which
> never gives me trouble, works with existing hardware where I only
> upgrade when I want to, and, while it make take a while to get all the
> drivers for the devices I need, at least I can rest easier knowing that
> once the driver is out, it will work for as long as I keep it compiled
> to my system. And, I've never seen a Linux distro regress on
> capabilities from update to update (No, I've never used Corel Linux).
>
> So, as long as you Windows advocates keep coming into the
> comp.os.linux.advocacy groups telling us how much easier Windows is to
> install, I'm just going to laugh at you because I know you're either a
> moron, ignorant, or just plain lying.
>
> Oh, and to the trolls, this is a first-hand account true story, unlike
> your works of fiction that you keep spewing.
>
> Microshaft Sucks! I hope to NEVER buy another product that Gates had a
> hand in selling!
>
>
>
------------------------------
From: T. Max Devlin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Anonymous Wintrolls and Authentic Linvocates - Re: R.E. Ballard
says Linux growth stagnating
Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 08:26:23 -0400
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Said User & in comp.os.linux.advocacy;
>In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, T. Max Devlin wrote:
>>Said Roberto Alsina in comp.os.linux.advocacy;
>>>"T. Max Devlin" escribi�:
>> [...]
>>>I'm sure you can show me the actions TT took against Harmony.
>>
>>Did I say they took actions? Did you say they took actions? Is there
>>some reason you're trying to obfuscate?
>
>You certainly seem to imply that they threatened - which would have been an
>action.
Threatened to take action is taking action? Let's try to make sense,
here, if we could.
>>You're the one who posted the email showing Troll Tech threatening
>>Harmony with a lawsuite, dude. I'd suggest you stop screwing around,
>
>The one where Eirik said he could not promise that they would never sue,
>since a) He can't predict the future & b) he's not a lawyer?
The one where he apparently obfuscated and provided a scenario where TT
would sue, yes.
>>unless your intent is to mess up any chance there might be that
>>consumer's won't avoid KDE like the plague, for fear of getting stuck
>>like we have with Microsoft.
>
>Oh please, consumers will ever care what is said on cola?
>
>Consumers have so far preferred KDE. I can see no reason why this will not
>continue.
Consumers care what is said in COLA if consumers know what is said in
COLA. Consumers don't prefer KDE, though they may prefer some of the
features of KDE. Which is, of course, why its being discussed in COLA.
Being a technology consumer advocate (my newly designated role, it
seems), I can see several reason why that might not continue.
What is your relationship to KDE, BTW?
>As for MS, they seem preferred by a great many people.
You're apparently entirely ignorant of the rather massive and long-term
criminal conviction which concludes this is not actually the case.
>>GO AHEAD; pretend you can't understand what I'm saying; EXAGERATE the
>>issue and try to make my position seem ridiculous; PRETEND to refute the
>>facts by building a strong man; MAKE SURE we know how utterly clueless
>>you are.
>
>fyi - it is not Roberto who appears clueless about KDE in this thread.
Did I say he was clueless about KDE? I think not.
>It pays to reearch before you shoot your mouth off.
Bite me.
>>Just in case you haven't realized it by now, Roberto: BULLSHIT DOESN'T
>>WORK when your opponent is only concerned with straightforward
>>discussion, honesty, and integrity, regardless of the positions or
>>rhetoric presented.
>
>Just apply that argument to your own specious utterances, and take yourself
>off like a good little troll.
>
>[snip]
>
>>I'm not trying to bully you, Roberto. You'll recall that I wasn't the
>>one in earlier exchanges to point out how your elitist attitude
>
>i would consider it far from elitist to have tolerated your unwillingness
>to learn, research, or god forbid, think, as far as has been done in this
>thread.
>
>>reflected badly on your attitude towards community supporters, though I
>
>You a community supporter? Of what community? I don't recall your name anywhere
>bar cola.
Did I say I was a 'community supporter'? And where is this mythical
list of all of the Linux community which you seem to refer to?
>>did concur with that sentiment. I just want to make things clear;
>>you're being an ass, and should shut up now.
>
>Boy, some people need to look in the mirror.
Ooh, how clever. Guess you really shut me down with that cutting
response, eh?
--
T. Max Devlin
*** The best way to convince another is
to state your case moderately and
accurately. - Benjamin Franklin ***
====== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News ======
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
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------------------------------
From: "MH" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Another "feature" in IE discovered.
Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 08:30:06 -0400
"D. Spider" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> It appears that on Sat, 16 Sep 2000 08:31:10 -0400, in
> comp.os.linux.advocacy "MH" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> >I'd gladly trade my movements being tracked for a browser that can:
> >
> >Deal with text entry forms properly. Some work, many don't. Basic
> >functionality. Don't have it? Your browser is worst than second rate.
>
> What browser doesn't have it?
NN for Linux..in this case red hat 5.0, 5.1, 5.2 and 6.2
I log onto many sites that require username and password. More times than I
can count, this is screwed up one way or another under NN with linux.
> >Allow copy operations from any part of the page, and paste into any of my
> >text editors
> >I can't copy text off a page in NN and paste it into any of KDE's
editors.
> >This blows.
>
> *ROFL* that's funny, I can do that fine.
I'm glad you find it amusing. Can you tell me HOW I'm supposed to accomplish
this feat? Maybe there is a problem with my config, perhaps you can steer me
in the direction to fix that. I've looked for a solution and not found one.
I can do this from a terminal to K-editors, from anything K to anything else
K, but not from NN.
I've tried six ways to sunday to select - copy - past text from NN into
either of the editors supplied with KDE, and I GET NOTHING. Please help me
if you can.
> >
> >Fully functioning hot keys for all important operations.
> >I'm not a mouser. NN makes me have to be one for may operations.
>
> Hrmm I'm a big hotkey user myself. One of many reasons Opera is the
> best browser around IMOP. NN does as good a job at this as IE, neither
> is really good at it.
NN is NO WHERE as good as this as IE. I'm talking about under Linux with
regards to NN.
Half of the menu items are disabled in NN in any event.
Why did you leave out my complaint about NN not tabbing to all parts of a
page?
To use your line *ROTFL* that's funny.
> >I.E., for all of the faults it does have, handles all of the above
without
> >flaw.
>
> No better than NN, and much worse than Opera.
I used opera 3 under window NT4. It was less than thrilling.How any company
could charge for that software was beyond me. I used it for the full trial
period, then trashed it. It would crash or lock up on anything other than
basic hypertext. Hot keys? Yes, it does have strength in that area. Page
rendering? It left much to be desired.
However, I would trade Opera for NN any day of the week. NN for Linux is a
terrible excuse for software from a major company. It's embarrassing.
------------------------------
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