Linux-Advocacy Digest #250, Volume #29 Thu, 21 Sep 00 16:13:09 EDT
Contents:
Re: Because programmers hate users (Re: Why are Linux UIs so crappy?)
Re: Space Shuttle uses Windows software almost exclusively (Jason Bowen)
Re: The Linux Experience
Re: The Linux Experience (Roberto Alsina)
Re: The Linux Experience (Bob Tennent)
Re: End-User Alternative to Windows (Matthias Warkus)
Re: Computer and memory (Matthias Warkus)
Re: [OT] Global warming. (was Public v. Private Schools) (Jeff Glatt)
Re: Never tell me again that Windows is easy to install!!! It's a lie! ("Yannick")
Re: End-User Alternative to Windows ("Yannick")
Re: The Linux Experience (Matthias Warkus)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ()
Subject: Re: Because programmers hate users (Re: Why are Linux UIs so crappy?)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 19:38:57 -0000
On Thu, 21 Sep 2000 19:01:38 GMT, The Ghost In The Machine
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>In comp.os.linux.advocacy, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
><[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote
>on Sun, 17 Sep 2000 17:41:48 GMT
><[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>>On Sat, 16 Sep 2000 18:11:53 GMT, Richard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>>Donovan Rebbechi wrote:
>>>
>>>> I guess you could write an "openfile" command that does this using the
>>>> existing functionality. The reason why no one's written such a thing is
>>>> more lack of interest than anyone else.
>>>
>>>Which is quite telling. But it's not a big surprise that programmers
>>>wouldn't be interested in helping users, even if they are (technically,
>>>not mentally) users themselves.
>>>
>>>And writing an "openfile" command would not be sufficient for
>>>consistency. The shell would still treat "executable" and "non-
>>>executable" files in completely different ways for no justifiable
>>>reason whatsoever.
>>
>> Bullshit.
>>
>> There's a very GOOD reason to distinguish between the two.
>>
>> Data != programs.
>>
>> It never has.
>
>Pedant point. A program is data to the microprocessor (and to the
Even in the binary stream going to the microprocessor there
is a distinction between data and executable. Even in the
instructions themselves, there is a distinction between
data and executable. Subsequently, there will be bits going
over the data pins bound strictly for storage registers
rather than the decode unit.
>program or library loader embedded deep in the kernel); data may
>be interpreted as a program at some level; some files are both
>(a C++ file may be text data to a naive text editor, just another file
>(text, binary, it doesn't really care) to copy to a file copy
>utility [*], and source input to a compiler/linker combo that ultimately
>generates a native executable.
>
>But as for the issue regarding "opening" a file in a visual shell such
>as Explorer, it's not clear to me that one would meaningfully want to
>"open" an executable unless one wanted to hex dump it, copy it, or
>"string" it ('strings' is a Unix command), looking for printable text
>stuck deep in the source code and ultimately compiled into the executable.
>Similarly for shell scripts (which are also editable via a simple
>text editor).
>
>So I have to agree with you. :-)
[deletia]
--
If you think before you speak the other guy gets his joke in first.
Give your child mental blocks for Christmas.
------------------------------
From: Jason Bowen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy
Subject: Re: Space Shuttle uses Windows software almost exclusively
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 13:39:22 -0600
The following is an absolutely true story. Apparently CU is a Win2k
rapid deployment site, we signed some agreement get free stuff they can
use us for advertising etc... Anyway I was working in a lab yesterday
when a representative from Microsoft walks in and says they are here to
do some taping in the labs. I told him that there were no Win2k labs in
Engineering and that he had probably been in the only one earlier in the
humanities building. I called my boss and asked him if he knew of any
others and he didn't and said to talk to so and so but they weren't in
their office. So I again told him that there were no Win2k labs in
Engineering, his reply? "They don't have to be Win2k, we just want to
show the labs at work." So I'll look for that Microsoft video showing
the U of C engineering students using Win2k in droves. I offered to
have my picture taken in front of my Linux workstation but they guy
didn't have a sense of humor at all.
Jason
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ()
Subject: Re: The Linux Experience
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 19:46:03 -0000
On Thu, 21 Sep 2000 14:14:53 -0300, Roberto Alsina <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>El jue, 21 sep 2000, [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribi�:
>>On Thu, 21 Sep 2000 10:10:14 -0300, Roberto Alsina <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>>El lun, 18 sep 2000, Jake Taense escribi�:
>>>>Spent some of my Sunday helping out a friend with a problem.
>>>>
[deletia]
>>>>"What was I supposed to do?" she asked.
>>>>
>>>>"You did everything fine. In fact, I'm glad this happened. Welcome to the
>>>>linux experience."
>>>
>>>Better answer: "Don't get desperate, and wait 3 minutes until init stops
>>>respawining xdm".
>>
>> Or better yet:
>> Execute that well known "three finger salute".
>> Wait for the machine to power cycle.
>> Enter "linux 3" at the LILO prompt.
>
>In a fast computer with a quirky video that can be pretty hard to do,
>if xdm is cycling quick.
If your machine is having severe fits it's likely going to
be that or the power switch.
reiser can be really handy in those situations.
--
Great Moments in History: #3
August 27, 1949:
A Hall of Fame opened to honor outstanding members of the
Women's Air Corp. It was a WAC's Museum.
I'm so miserable without you, it's almost like you're here.
------------------------------
From: Roberto Alsina <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: The Linux Experience
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 16:56:18 -0300
El jue, 21 sep 2000, [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribi�:
>On Thu, 21 Sep 2000 14:14:53 -0300, Roberto Alsina <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>El jue, 21 sep 2000, [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribi�:
>>>On Thu, 21 Sep 2000 10:10:14 -0300, Roberto Alsina <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>>>El lun, 18 sep 2000, Jake Taense escribi�:
>>>>>Spent some of my Sunday helping out a friend with a problem.
>>>>>
>[deletia]
>>>>>"What was I supposed to do?" she asked.
>>>>>
>>>>>"You did everything fine. In fact, I'm glad this happened. Welcome to the
>>>>>linux experience."
>>>>
>>>>Better answer: "Don't get desperate, and wait 3 minutes until init stops
>>>>respawining xdm".
>>>
>>> Or better yet:
>>> Execute that well known "three finger salute".
>>> Wait for the machine to power cycle.
>>> Enter "linux 3" at the LILO prompt.
>>
>>In a fast computer with a quirky video that can be pretty hard to do,
>>if xdm is cycling quick.
>
> If your machine is having severe fits it's likely going to
> be that or the power switch.
That was why I said: do nothing, it stops all by itself. Beats using the power
button :-)
> reiser can be really handy in those situations.
Indeed. I'm now running a beta of Conectiva that installs over Reiser, with X4,
it's sweet :-)
--
Roberto Alsina (disclaimer: Conectiva employee)
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Bob Tennent)
Subject: Re: The Linux Experience
Date: 21 Sep 2000 13:53:41 GMT
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Thu, 21 Sep 2000 10:10:14 -0300, Roberto Alsina wrote:
>El lun, 18 sep 2000, Jake Taense escribi�:
>>Spent some of my Sunday helping out a friend with a problem.
>>
>>Seems she has been happily using Linux for most things (RedHat 6.2) for a
>>little bit now. However, like many users, she disliked the lack of Truetype
>>support.
>>
>>So, she called up another linux user and asked what she could do to fix that.
>>
>>"Oh, just add a truetype font server."
>>
Apparently the other linux user wasn't aware that RedHat 6.2 comes with
TrueType support out of the box.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Matthias Warkus)
Crossposted-To: alt.os.linux,comp.os.linux.misc
Subject: Re: End-User Alternative to Windows
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 19:33:32 +0200
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
It was the Wed, 20 Sep 2000 23:38:03 +0100...
...and robert w hall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Matthias Warkus
> >For most early-era operating systems, there was not much of a
> >difference between binary and source code. Writing operating systems
> >in high-level languages is a pretty recent development. :)
>
> Er, 1970 - BCPL - I remember it well
Yeah. 1970 is pretty recent. Your point being?
mawa
--
1. Ohne Frau weggehen is Schei�e.
2. Wennste nich weggehst, findste auch keine Frau.
Kurz bevor der Menschheit durch diesen Teufelskreis das endg�ltige
Aussterben drohte, half ihr die Erfindung der Clique aus der Not...
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Matthias Warkus)
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Computer and memory
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 20:46:45 +0200
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
It was the Wed, 13 Sep 2000 01:31:29 GMT...
...and Otto <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> "Matthias Warkus" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>
> : I know de.* from the insides, and following observations can be made,
> : comparing de.* with the Big Eight:
> :
> : - German-language posters are very rude with respect to formal criteria,
> such
> : as crossposting to off-topic groups, bizarre encodings, all-capital
> : or all-lowercase postings etc.
> : - German-language posters are generally better at expressing
> : themselves, mastering grammar, spelling correctly and being polite
> : than American English-language posters (no surprise, because a lot
> : of Germans speak better English than most Americans)
>
> To start with, which is the German poster then? Rude or generally better?
Both. What I wanted to say is that they are rude with anyone who comes
in and posts in all-lowercase, bizarre encodings and such. They are
very strict when it comes to following and enforcing RFC 1036 and
common conventions such as "there's no space between punctuation and
the word it belongs to".
> To
> continue, there is no argument on their English knowledge. However their
> knowledge of the American-English language is none existent.
Of course, because that's a dialect. I don't expect any American to
have any knowledge of German dialects such as Palatine or Bavarian,
either.
> : Dream on. We're not some kind of Third World country. IIRC the ratio
> : of Internet-connected Germans, for one, has reached .5 many months ago
> : and has since then far surpassed it.
>
> What measurement is .5? Restraining myself to put foot in the mouth....
Heh. I thought this was perfectly understandable. I even left the zero
out to make the number look "more American".
.5 == 0.5 == 50% == 1/2, isn't it?
mawa
--
Easy Girl Had Sex On Tuesday Afternoon; Did Not Use Protection:
"Before You Know, It's Wednesday", She Says
Film at 11
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Jeff Glatt)
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: [OT] Global warming. (was Public v. Private Schools)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 19:59:06 GMT
>"Aaron R. Kulkis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Mark Kelley wrote:
>>
>> Jeff Glatt wrote:
>>
>> > >[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Nathaniel Jay Lee)
>> > >Normally I don't resort to what I like to call
>> > >'Kulkinesque' type statements. But from what little of
>> > >[Tholen's] rambling I've seen, you are quite deserving.
>> >
>> > And *yet another* comment for the archives
>>
>> It appears that the only person who does not seem to think Dave is
>> suffering from a cerebral wedgie is Dave, himself.
>Tholen should be universally auto-cancelled on ALL Usenet servers.
Yet another contribution. Yes, Mark's assessment that Tholen is indeed
a lone kook and obvious social misfit is true, and testimony to
Tholen's mental illness
------------------------------
From: "Yannick" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Never tell me again that Windows is easy to install!!! It's a lie!
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 20:02:53 GMT
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> a �crit dans le message :
8qbaf9$enp$[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> That is what I thought. You are mistaken in your terminology. In order
to
> partition a harddrive it has to be formatted first. After it is
partitioned
> that partitions need to have the filesystem made, which is what you are
> doing when you call it formatting.
>
> When you format a floppy the format command both formats and makes the
file
> system on the floppy which is two in fact two processes handled by one
> program in the Dos and Windows environment. What you would call low level
> formatting of the harddrive is the real formatting process, the the MS
> format commands do not do for harddrives.
>
Quite aside from the rest of the discussion about Win2000 or whatever :
* If I remember correctly, nowadays you don't do a low level format any more
on hard drives (unless in some special cases for special purposes). The low
level
formatting is done when the disk is manufactured. I've heard that the low
level format
on an existing hard drive can be tricky, and not always a good thing to do.
-> Anybody here manufacturing hard drives to give us details ?
* As for the formatting of partitions, you still have two options. I guess
that the difference
is only that :
- a quick format will only write the file system
- a slow format will check the disk surface (I guess by some writing and
reading process)
and install the file system. You don't low level the drive, but you write
and read the whole partition
of it, so of course it's much longer.
So I guess that you always do a high-level format, but even then one method
is much longer than the other...
When I have to deal with a new HD, I usually :
- make a partition using the whole disk, and do a full format (with surface
check). My purpose in doing this is checking that the drive surface has not
been damaged by shipping and handling.
- delete this partition and partition the disk again for its use
- format the partitions using any tool or OS, preferably fast format since
the surface has been proved good already...
------------------------------
From: "Yannick" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: alt.os.linux,comp.os.linux.misc
Subject: Re: End-User Alternative to Windows
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 20:02:55 GMT
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> a �crit dans le message :
8q8sgk$r14$[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> In article <HTOx5.1724$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
> "Yannick" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > Now consider someone working with his computer for interactive tasks
> > (wordprocessing, drawing, multimedia, etc...). What the job is about
> is
> > communicating with the machine, so one of the major quality
> requirements
> > will be a rich user interface. I personnally prefer (for interactive
> tasks)
> > software that has a rich interface (for instance Windows apps using
> the GUI
> > intensively) to software that I can run for three days without a
> crash,
>
> There are several problems with that. First, for an end user, a major
> part of quality is being able to figure out how to do his job. If the
> help data are useless nad the hardcopy manuals are a joke, then it
> doesn't matter how pretty or rich the interface is.
Sorry, but you'll notice that linux is not much better on that level. There
may be more documentation, but it is scattered on several help systems, is
often outdated, etc... The problem with linux is that the learning curve of
the documentation system is quite high unless perhaps you know what to look
for, whereas window's Contents/Index/Search window is quite intuitive to
anybody who has ever used a _book_. As for the quantity of doc available on
windows (for the user) it's true that is is getting thinner and thinner,
which is a shame. But it's less useful than on linux too, 'cause most of the
times you can figure out the meaning of the dialog boxes.
> Not that I agree
> that the m$ interface is either; it isn't.
That is an opinion, and not that common either. To the people who learn to
use the GUI, you'll notice that many linux advocates find Windows' interface
to be rich and maybe one of the best, perhaps the best. Just as most Windows
advocates find the unix shell an very good tool too. The problem here is
that the shell is for the "computer people" (= those whose job is about
computers themselves, not their use as a tool), whereas a GUI is designed to
be, at first, intuitive if maybe inefficient while you do not really know
it, and afterwards very efficient for experienced users (including "computer
people").
> Another problem is that a crash often loses the user's data, and even
> when it doesn't it disrupts his train of thought.
As for the loss of data, there are two things :
- the loss of what you've been doing just after the last save of your work.
This applies only when you use apps that work in memory (many of them are of
course). In most cases sotware could (and often does) include some autosave
& rescue feature. If not, you easily get used to auto-saving yourself, at
the critical stages (= your personal division of the train of thought into
elementary tasks). If you're working with software working on the hard drive
in a transactional manner, this simply cannot occur....
- the loss of the data that was on the hard disk. I've not encountered such
a problem due to a system hang on Windows. The only problems I've
encountered with the file system losing files was on temporary and/or data
caches (such as temporary internet files). In both cases, the corruption of
that data is of no or minor incidence, because those data are expected to be
volatile anyway.
On the other hand, it is likely to occur if the bug comes from your app
corrupting your data. But here we are speaking of the OS, not the apps.
We're even not speaking of bugs, we're speaking of stability, which is the
ability of the system not to crash. On the experience I have, such crashes
have become quite rare since Win98 (and altogether very rare under NT4),
except for instance when you are doing some direct hardware access with
buggy games and non certified video drivers (My personal experience of
things, but I do have some experience on different machines in different
contexts for very different uses)... I've encountered a few hangs on Win98SE
that are not related to the OS but to a precise hardware conflict, which is
not the fault of the OS. There are conditions that crash IE5 and / or its
desktop, but on both cases it does not crash the OS or the apps. (That would
be similar to your linux window manager crashing, except perhaps if your
apps are children of the window manager ? Does it crash the apps then ?).
> I doubt that you would
> get a user looking at the BSOD to agree that it is quality.
That's because their quality requirements include stability. The reason here
is that of course stability would be a requirement for everybody if it was
available at the same time as all their other requirements. Linux is pretty
stable, but for many people, that's about all there is about it. Microsoft's
understanding of the problem was better on that point : they have two
versions of the Windows OS, sharing lots of apps. One is specialized on
stability, security, etc... The other is specialized in raw efficiency (for
games, for instance), direct hardware use, legacy hardware support, legacy
apps support.
Why not both in one OS ? Because it's not an easy thing to do (nobody quite
managed to do it yet), and they _do_ have to take their legacy into account,
because of how many customers they have.
Yannick.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Matthias Warkus)
Subject: Re: The Linux Experience
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 21:52:11 +0200
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
It was the Thu, 21 Sep 2000 16:56:18 -0300...
...and Roberto Alsina <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > reiser can be really handy in those situations.
>
> Indeed. I'm now running a beta of Conectiva that installs over Reiser, with X4,
> it's sweet :-)
ReiserFS is the best thing since sliced bread. But I've got no backup
device to back my data up, so I can't switch yet... :(
At the GNOME booth at LinuxTag 2000, all our machines had ReiserFS. A
find(1) on these machines was faster than a locate(1) on mine! (No
shit.)
mawa
--
Sit down.
------------------------------
** FOR YOUR REFERENCE **
The service address, to which questions about the list itself and requests
to be added to or deleted from it should be directed, is:
Internet: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
You can send mail to the entire list (and comp.os.linux.advocacy) via:
Internet: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Linux may be obtained via one of these FTP sites:
ftp.funet.fi pub/Linux
tsx-11.mit.edu pub/linux
sunsite.unc.edu pub/Linux
End of Linux-Advocacy Digest
******************************
