Linux-Advocacy Digest #663, Volume #29 Sat, 14 Oct 00 23:13:03 EDT
Contents:
Re: Why is MS copying Sun??? ("Simon Cooke")
Space Station, Windows & Unix (Robert Love)
Re: Anybody want to test a widget? ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: Anybody want to test a widget? ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: [OT] Bush v. Gore on taxes (Static66)
Re: [OT] Bush v. Gore on taxes (Static66)
Re: [OT] Bush v. Gore on taxes (was: Re: Would a M$ Voluntary Split ...) ("Chad
Myers")
Re: Why is MS copying Sun??? (Darin Johnson)
Re: Claire Lynn ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: Why is MS copying Sun??? ("Weevil")
Re: Why is MS copying Sun??? (Darin Johnson)
Re: Why is MS copying Sun??? (Darin Johnson)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Simon Cooke" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why is MS copying Sun???
Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2000 01:23:47 GMT
"T. Max Devlin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> Said Simon Cooke in comp.os.linux.advocacy;
> >"T. Max Devlin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> >news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> >> The bizarre part is that I can't for the life of me figure out where
> >> anyone got the idea that a vendor *isn't* actually *supposed* to try to
> >> make their product compatible with everybody else's, regardless of
their
> >> market share.
> >
> >Up to a point, it's counter productive to do so. Why would anyone do so
if
> >it costs more?
>
> Because it increases the value of their product and broadens their
> potential customer base to include the customers of their competitor's
> products, obviously.
Not necessarily, actually. Up to a point, it costs more to provide that
compatibility than you get as a return. Which means you don't do it -- in
much the same way that if you won't make a profit doing something,
businesses won't do it. Unless they're nonprofit charities, of course.
> >If people will pay for that compatibility, then software will
> >get written that's compatible.
>
> Which is to say that if software is written that's compatible, people
> will pay for it.
No; that's an IF vs. IFF statement.
If software is written that is compatible with other software, people will
pay for it.
If software is written that isn't compatible with other software, people
will pay for it.
One does not necessarily exclude the other.
> Thus, writing compatible software has a economic
> advantage over writing incompatible software. It is only in the
> monopolistic strategy that this does not hold true.
No, it doesn't necessarily have that advantage.
Look at the bottom line:
It costs more to develop a compatible version of something than one that
doesn't care.
All business decisioins are based on profit. Therefore, the profit from the
compatible version must be higher than the profit from the incompatible
version for it to be created.
Unless the number of people who want a compatible version outweigh the cost
of development for that version -- OR you increase the price point (and
prices in the marketplace are typically set by the market, not the vendor,
so you don't have that leeway).
That analysis is not a simple one; it means that you have to determine if
it's feasible to put the compatiblity in. A good breakdown of the costs of a
software project is necessary here:
1. How many tech support calls will you get if your compatibility layer
isn't 100% correct (typically, companies don't publish their file formats,
or if they do, they're holey)? Tech support calls cost money. Claiming
explicitly that you don't support other formats eliminates that cost source.
2. How much will it cost to do the Quality Assurance testing on that section
of the codebase to make sure that it works correctly in all circumstances?
Again, if your competitor hasn't fully documented everything to do with
their file format (which they're not necessarily going to do), then you're
going to have to do a LOT more testing. You'd have to do some anyway just to
make sure that the spec matches reality.
3. How much will it cost to analyze the compatibility requirements and write
the converters/compatibility layer?
4. How much will it cost to document it?
5. Do you need to keep up with an incrementally evolving standard? (eg.
HTML, Word file format) Will your users expect that you remain current? If
so, you're going to probably have to maintain this section of the code and
improve on it every year. Even if you don't, you'll have to maintain your
end of the compatibility contract -- that is, if you add new features, you'd
better make sure you can export them.
> > If it's not an issue -- that is, it's not
> >something that will sell more of the product, then it won't get put in.
> >Simple economics.
>
> You mean simple retroactive justification of anti-competitive
> strategies, I think. Why wouldn't compatibility be something that will
> sell more of the product, as it always has been in the past and
> continues to be very valuable, even despite the criminal prevention of
> free markets which the monopoly entails.
Does it sell enough of the product to be a profitable addition? If you can
sell more by adding new features of your own, or by bundling more content
with it, or by repackaging it, why wouldn't you do that rather than work on
a possibly unprofitable compatibility solution?
Not to mention that compatibility generally only goes one way when it comes
to system components -- that is, things are compatible with those *below
them*.
Eg. You can't change Windows to make it incompatible with certain apps
without breaking other apps. Similarly, you can't change DOS without forcing
Windows 3.1 to be changed heavily. However, that responsibility does NOT go
the other way -- ie. you don't have to make sure that Windows 3.1 works
properly with everything it could possibly be built upon -- not unless you
want to incur that massive extra incompatibility cost.
It *is* economically unreasonable -- until you reach a certain threshold --
to expect global compatibility.
Simon
------------------------------
From: Robert Love <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Space Station, Windows & Unix
Date: 14 Oct 2000 20:38:59 -0500
I sat around today catching large portions of the mission. There was a
brief time when the Windows laptop had to be rebooted. However, the
laptops called PCSs that run the Station use Solaris and they had no
problems today.
Why trust critical systems to Windows? And yet I see that the USAF
is switching Cheyenne mountain to Windows. Its almost criminal.
--
=============================================================
| Support Signature Minimalism |
=============================================================
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Anybody want to test a widget?
Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2000 01:28:49 GMT
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
2:1 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> >
> > In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
> > 2:1 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > >
> > > Sorry i can't help, though.
> >
> > Rat bastard.
>
> When I start on GTK and have some time I might help. I understand your
> frustration, though.
S'alright. Just kidding around.
> I understand your frustration, though.
Uhhh.... S'alright. Just kidding around. You're skipping, by the way.
> Anyone want to help on a FORTH project? It's a nice, fast, portable (I
> hope)implementation designed to be embedded very easily in C programs.
What's it do? Just curious.
-wrinkledshirt
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Anybody want to test a widget?
Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2000 01:36:33 GMT
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (The Ghost In The Machine) wrote:
> In comp.os.linux.advocacy, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >
> >Rat bastard.
> >
> Uh, can we at least get this thread back to discussing the widget,
> now? :-)
Seriously? It's a help widget designed to work similarly to the way
online help works in the MS environment. Have the contents tree and
index almost finished in a tabbed notebook on the side, and a viewer
area that loads the topic. Eventually, I want to use an HTML widget
instead of the text one that I have now.
I started doing it because they had us coding MS help files in class,
and the interface was so ridiculous to build the thing that I thought
I'd try to make something easier in GTK+. Haven't built the Help toolkit
yet, but the datafile format is just about set and isn't all that hard
to hand code. At the moment, I just want to see if it integrates okay
into other programs and compiles on machines other than mine, and then
maybe I'll go knocking down the doors of some of the folks whose games
get distributed in commercial distros and ask if they want it (I'd write
the help files too, if they wanted...).
Just found the standard GNOME help browser to be a little too bulky, and
thought there wasn't any reason it couldn't get reduced to a simple
widget. There are some bugs with the version of GtkCTree that I have (no
trees more than three levels deep for some strange reason), but other
than that it seems to load quickly enough.
Anyways, that's it. No doubt someone's already done this, but I just
thought I'd give it a go. No reason MS should have the usability for
newbies argument when the tools are all right there...
-wrinkledshirt
wrinkledshirt (at) hotmail (dot) com
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
------------------------------
From: Static66 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: [OT] Bush v. Gore on taxes
Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2000 02:21:10 GMT
On Sun, 15 Oct 2000 00:59:27 GMT, Loren Petrich <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Static66
><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>> Furthermore you have illustrated nicely (by leaving him the cans) what
>> I said earlier in the thread to the idiot loren. Americans are
>> generous people and help should be provided to those in genuine need
>> of assistance at the community level.
>
> However, they have not been able to spend very much on him, while
>Mr. Static66's beloved rich people have not spent a cent on him.
Stop with your idiotic "class" arguments.
Just how modest is your life communist ??
Do you have things beyond your basic needs??
I think that by your logic (misguided belief that anything in LIFE is
"fair") you should be surrendering your possessions to the state. You
would hate to "rich" while there are so many "suffering".
You think the government should be penalizing those who succeed. What
have you done for the "poor". I'm just dying to know.
------------------------------
From: Static66 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: [OT] Bush v. Gore on taxes
Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2000 02:30:31 GMT
On Sun, 15 Oct 2000 00:52:01 GMT, Loren Petrich <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Aaron R. Kulkis
><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>> Here's a solution: GET A FUCKING JOB.
>
> Presupposing that one can find a job if one tried.
They can.
>
>> First...AFDC, WIC, SSI, etc, do NOT encourage anybody to "get back on their
>> feet"...quite the opposite...it encourages them to further indulge in their
>> pathological behavior.
>
> I'm sure that Mr. Kulkis has been mugged numerous times by retirees
>-- their receiving pensions and Social Security and Medicare had
>clearly made them do it.
>
>> If the government wasn't confiscating %50 of what I earn, I could
>> be helping numerous people actually
>
> It's not confiscation. It's the law. I find this a strange attitude
>for someone who professes to believe in law and order.
>
I do not believe anyone was advocating breaking the law. I pay taxes.
But of course with your logic all laws are correct ?? we should just
let go and accept them ?? I'm sure I could find dozens of examples of
laws proven to be unlawful and then removed from law.
>> Answer: Never...this country was founded upon the principle of
>> PERSONAL ACCOUNTABILITY. <
Damn right! something you liberals continually overlook when handing
out the welfare..
>
> Except, of course, for Mr. Kulkis. If he got fired for venomously
>making lots of accusations against his fellow employees, he'd blame it
>on anyone other than himself.
------------------------------
From: "Chad Myers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: [OT] Bush v. Gore on taxes (was: Re: Would a M$ Voluntary Split ...)
Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2000 02:42:40 GMT
"Loren Petrich" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Static66
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > On Tue, 10 Oct 2000 05:07:26 GMT, Loren Petrich <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > wrote:
> > >In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, STATIC66
> > ><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > >> Keep ducking and weaving Loren!! You don't like hearing than
> > >> "visionary" Algore is a rich,poluting,beltway boy do you???
> > >
> > > Something you right-wingers normally pride yourself on being.
> >
> > HaHaHaHa yes we are all rich, poluting bastards..Still not coming to
> > terms with reality are you...
>
> Thank you for admitting what you are.
I'm not sure wich is more pathetic, his poor attempt at sarcasm, or
your not catching/admitting it was so.
-Chad
------------------------------
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why is MS copying Sun???
From: Darin Johnson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2000 02:41:58 GMT
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Matt Kennel) writes:
> One source is stupid business magazine platitudes and slogans like,
>
> "Business Is War"
>
> No it's not! That's a repulsively immoral statement. We should
> wisely craft our economic system for the benefit of society.
Off topic, but I wonder if that statement came about in 19th century
England or Europe. For quite some time, "war" was not considered a
vast horror perpetrated by or against evil men. It was closer to
being a patriotic sort of thing, expand and maintain the empire. War
was fought over land, prestige, imagined insults, and webs of
alliances. And over economics of course. War was a gentlemanly
thing! (where gentleman meant aristocrat of course)
"War" then is a tactical and strategic game played by gentlemen.
So in that context, "business is war" takes on a different meaning.
So do people who say that today to describe what they do use the
strategy/tactics meaning, or do they use the death/despair meaning?
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Claire Lynn
Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2000 02:44:29 GMT
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Whatever.
>
> Most of the Linvocates in this group can't advocate their collective
> ass's out of a paper bag. They may be technically astute, but their
> companies lock them away in rubber coding rooms far from the clients
> because they are so, well, geeky.
<snip>
> We got a guy who talks like Dr. Seuss.
Probably just trying to be considerate for people such as yourself who
have trouble understanding adults speaking reasonably.
> We got a guy who writes a dissertation to every question.
Yeah, sorry about that. We've scheduled a lobotomy for him so that his
posts will be dumber for people such as yourself who have trouble
understanding adults speaking reasonably. We promise to use more
repetition, too.
> We have a guy who can't use a spell checker.
Probably too busy getting work done to pay attention to his spelling.
You should follow his example, your production would probably improve if
you turned off the paperclip.
> Another one who just makes up "facts" as he goes along.
Just "swimming" with the "current", my "dear".
> A couple of Sci-Fi nuts with this Tholen thing that goes on forever.
Odd that you pay attention to it. Many of us have never noticed...
> A couple of developers, why the hell they are here is beyond me?
They like what they're working with, apparently. Don't notice many MS
developers over here... lots of sys admins, though. Poor lost souls,
indeed.
> Some nasty folks.
Hey claire, maybe you ought to raise the bar for the rest of us.
Argumentative limbo is pretty hard with people such as yourself. Are you
double-jointed or what?
> People complaining when their 486 computer won't work.
Better than running Win2K and complaing about how their P3 won't work...
> People who like to dissect every word all the time ignoring the
> context of the statement.
Translation: Please interpret anything I say so that I sound right.
Ignore hypocritical statements, outright falsehoods, and general
naivety.
> You guys even have to kill filter your own advocates.
You've been checking out our killfiles? Wow. I got it all wrong, I
thought you just a troll, but all along you've really been hiding your
identity as an l33t h8xoR.
Claire, you've been holding out on us...
-wri
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
------------------------------
From: "Weevil" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why is MS copying Sun???
Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 21:56:01 -0500
T. Max Devlin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> >I'm sorry that you're so right all the time, could never be wrong,
Actually, I've been publically, humiliatingly wrong before. One of the
worst times was in a chess newsgroup, several years ago, where I got into a
heated discussion about the relative complexities of writing chess software
vs go software. I had made one wrong assumption and based an elaborate
argument on it that "proved" my view of the whole thing. It was only after
I was so deep into it I couldn't back out that I realized the fallacy (some
kind person pointed it out to me in email, actually).
> >and frankly that you ate so much lead-based paint as a child.
You say that like it's a bad thing...a bad thing...a bad thing...
jwb
------------------------------
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why is MS copying Sun???
From: Darin Johnson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2000 02:57:03 GMT
"Erik Funkenbusch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> It always amuses me how people can say "MS doesn't know squat about
> designing operating systems and everything they create is junk" out of one
> side of their mouth, but out of the other side they say "MS uses unfair
> tactics, like being prescient enough to know which undocumented API's a
> competitor will use in the future, make them attractive to use, then when
> they use them, pull the rug out from under them, all while not breaking our
> apps".
Easy - you write code like:
if (feature_x_exists)
fast_code_using_feature_x();
else
slow_and_compatible_code();
I don't know if MS does stuff like that though, but it's a commonly
used technique to deal with older OS/compiler/library versions; so why
not use it for future versions too?
------------------------------
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why is MS copying Sun???
From: Darin Johnson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2000 02:58:33 GMT
"James A. Robertson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> Consumers have made a
> <choice> to favor Windows. One can argue that it was a poor choice (I
> would), but it was a freely made choice - mostly because other vendors
> cheerfully allowed MS to take the high volume/low price end of the
> market as they chose to take the high margin/low volume end.
Maybe it's the boss that made the choice? Ie, the home user may have
decided what to buy, but the office user is told what to use.
------------------------------
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