Linux-Advocacy Digest #643, Volume #30 Mon, 4 Dec 00 07:13:04 EST
Contents:
Re: OS tree - SOUND OFF! (Mister Kev)
Re: Why is MS copying Sun??? ("Simon Cooke")
Re: A Microsoft exodus! ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: Windoze 2000 - just as shitty as ever ("Ayende Rahien")
Re: Windoze 2000 - just as shitty as ever ("Ayende Rahien")
Re: Windoze 2000 - just as shitty as ever ("Ayende Rahien")
Re: Windows 2000 sucks compared to linux (Ketil Z Malde)
Re: Windows 2000 sucks compared to linux ("Ayende Rahien")
Re: how come Dell makes you buy Windows with all their PC's? ("Erik Funkenbusch")
Re: Windoze 2000 - just as shitty as ever ("Erik Funkenbusch")
Re: Windows 2000 sucks compared to linux (Ketil Z Malde)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Mister Kev <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: OS tree - SOUND OFF!
Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2000 11:23:17 GMT
I came over all weepy and nostalgic after reading this.
Here's my personal list. The work list is much less interesting,
except for the HP 85's.
All dates are approximate. Especially the recent ones.
1978 : Ohio Scientific Challenger C1P
1 MHz 6502. 4 K RAM. 8 K BASIC in ROM. 300 bd cassette tape I/F
32 x 16 char B&W video (later hacked to 64 x 16)
No OS.
1979 : Rockwell AIM
1 MHz 6502. Assembler in ROM. No video. Cassette tape I/F
No OS.
1981 : Microbee
4 MHz Z80, 16 K RAM. 8 K BASIC in ROM. Cassette tape I/F
64 x 16 B&W video, 256 x 256 B&W graphics
Dot matrix printer.
No OS.
1983 : Microbee Premium
4 MHz Z80, 128 K RAM, 2 5.25 inch FD.
512 x 256 color graphics, BASIC, Wordstar, Multiplan
300 bd modem
OS : CPM 2.2.
1988 : AMSTRAD 386
20 MHz 386, 4 M RAM (later upped to 16 M), 65 M HD
VGA color graphics, 14 inch screen, mouse
Color dot matrix printer. Later added a 1 X CDROM
OS : MSDOS 4, then 5, then 6.
Windows 286, upgraded to Windows 386. Excel. Amipro.
1992 : Edge 486
33 MHz 486, 16 M RAM, SVGA, 14 inch NEC Multisync
200 MB Quantum HD, added 2 extra 240 M Quantum HD
Added CDROM
German laser printer. Can't remember the name. Not reliable.
OS : DOS 5, then 6. Win 3, 3.1, 3.11.
1994 : Pentium 90 (my last computer not built by me)
90 MHz Pentium, 16 M RAM, SVGA, 15 inch monitor
1 G Seagate HD
HP inkjet printer.
OS : DOS 6, Win 3.1, 3.11.
1995 : Pentium 100, rebuilt from Edge 486
P100, 32 MRAM, 1 G HD, CDROM, Canon inkjet.
Still running. Used by my father.
OS : Win 95.
1997 : K6-233 built from parts
64 M RAM (later upped to 256 M). Matrox Mystique. Iomega Buz.
Currently has 3 IBM HD and a Kodak CD writer.
Had an Orchid Righteous for some years.
HP Laserjet 3.
Two NICs, one for LAN, one for cable modem.
OS : Multi boot Win 95, NT4, Win2000, Linux (RH).
1998 : K6-233 built from parts in P90 case
64 M RAM (recently upped to 128 M). NIC. CDROM.
New 10 G HD. Cheap Creative Graphics video.
Linux only. COL 2.4.
2000 : 800 MHz Thunderbird built from parts
384 M RAM. Promise RAID. 2 x IBM 30 G HD as RAID mirror.
ASUS GTS 2 video, 32 M. NIC. CDROM.
Win2000 only.
------------------------------
From: "Simon Cooke" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why is MS copying Sun???
Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2000 11:17:12 GMT
"Ketil Z Malde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> "Chad C. Mulligan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>
> >>> Are you psychic or psychotic?
>
> >> You don't have to be either, just a bit less than dim-witted. If you
> >> use e.g. SGML for your data format, it isn't very hard to be forward
> >> compatible.
>
> > But that isn't the case, and IIRC nobody is doing that.
>
> Yes, a lot of people use closed and proprietary data formats, since
> they then get an interface they're used to. Not everybody,though.
>
> It's not a technical problem, though, the lack of forward
> compatibility is either due to
>
> a) incompetence and short-sightedness
> b) wishing to lock in users and force software upgrades
> c) malice
>
> In most cases, I'd be inclined to suggest a). Feel free to make up
> your own mind.
You forgot:
d) business, time-to-market and cost constraints.
Simon
------------------------------
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: A Microsoft exodus!
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2000 10:48:07 GMT
Tom Wilson writes:
>>>>> Aaron R. Kulkis wrote:
>>>>>> Tom Wilson wrote:
>>>>>>> I wrote:
>>>>>>>> Aaron R. Kulkis writes:
>>>>>>>>>> Donovan Rebbechi writes:
>>>>>>>>>>> The movement keys are placed sensibly in vi (hjkl),
>>>>>>>>>> Which is not intuitive. First-time vi users, if they try to do
>>>>>>>>> Big fucking deal. NOTHING about computers is "intuitive"
>>>>>>>> Incorrect; consider the power switch.
>>>>>>> You'd be surprised....
>>>>>>> Never underestimate the idiot factor.
>>>>>> The power switch is NOT "intuitive"
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Proof: put a primative tribesman in a room with electric appliances
>>>>>> and tell him to start the things into operation.
>>>>> I'm in agreement.
>>>> You shouldn't be. His example doesn't represent proof for a power
>>>> switch not being intuitive.
>>> I'm agreeing that my choice of "idiot" was wrong.
>> But Aaron didn't say that your choice of "idiot" was wrong.
> He did that very thing by intimating the situation to be a question of
> intuitiveness as opposed to stupidity.
He didn't even intimate that situation. He simply repeated his claim
that the power switch is not intuitive, and then tried to offer some
proof for that claim.
>>> The hypothesis, strange as it is, points it out. It's a matter of
>>> experience and environment, not intellect.
>> "Experience" is the word I used for it. Someone else chose "familiarity".
>>> I used the word idiot because I had been trouble-shooting over
>>> the phone to complete morons that evening and had a dim view of
>>> humanity as a result.
>> Someone who couldn't find the "any" key on the keyboard?
> Worse. This was an professional moron.
>
> An old Novell customer who consistantly forgets his Administrator password.
> He's STILL running Novell 3.12 which is good, in a way, because you can hack
> into console debug mode and trick it into believing all system passwords
> have time-expired. That way he can log on as Administrator and get prompted
> for a new one.
>
> Ever tried to talk someone, who constantly interrupts and thinks he knows
> everything, through hacking Novell from the debug console?
No; I don't know anyone who hacks through Novell debug consoles.
> I would have done it myself, but, he lives 600 miles away.
Behind a firewall?
>>>>> The language I used, in hindsight, was wrong.
>>>> That doesn't justify your agreement.
>>> How do you figure? I was agreeing that my wording was off track and
>>> Aaron's post had pointed that out.
>> Aaron's post wasn't pointing to your wording. He was simply repeating
>> his claim that the power switch was not intuitive.
> He was pointing to my wording's intent - That it was a question of
> intellegence.
Where did he do that?
AK] The power switch is NOT "intuitive"
>>>>> Read: Never underestimate the ignorance factor.
>>>>>
>>>>> I used "idiot" because i'ts been one of those nights...
>>>> Go to the store. Buy a lamp. Take it home. Do you consult a manual
>>>> to find out what to do with the cord? I hope not. Yet the
>>>> hypothesized "primative tribesman" could have no idea what the cord
>>>> is for. Does that prove that the power cord is not intuitive?
>>> Oh for God's sake!
>> Which presupposes the existence of God.
> Yep, you're anal....
An illogical conclusion.
>>> His hypothesis was extreme, yes. However, it makes a valid point
>>> regarding experience.
>> On the contrary, it ignores the essential element of intuitive design,
>> which involves experience with similar items. If someone states something
>> about trees, you don't go to a desert and then proclaim the statement
>> about trees to be wrong.
> You watched a lot of Kung Fu as a kid, didn't you?
No.
> You sound like a fortune cookie.
On what basis do you make that ridiculous claim?
>>> You're bordering on anal retention, i'm afraid.
>> How ironic.
------------------------------
From: "Ayende Rahien" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: Windoze 2000 - just as shitty as ever
Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 13:03:28 +0200
"T. Max Devlin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> Said Ayende Rahien in alt.destroy.microsoft on Sun, 3 Dec 2000 00:09:31
> [...]
> >*Developing* software is what cost money.
> >Which you don't get in return if you GPL it.
>
> But you don't get it in return if you copyright it and wrap it in a
> trade secret, either. Whatever it is you do make money on has to cover
> the cost of developing, either way. Your argument is specious.
Yes you do.
Which is why most software beyond some level of sophistication is released
as such.
------------------------------
From: "Ayende Rahien" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: Windoze 2000 - just as shitty as ever
Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 13:27:01 +0200
"T. Max Devlin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> Said Ayende Rahien in alt.destroy.microsoft on Sun, 3 Dec 2000 00:36:39
> >Users can of course write to HKCU.
> >Please check MS guidelines to programming in windows, you'll see that it
> >states very clearly that user spesifics settings in HKCU.
> >Beside, the very same mecanism (HKCU being user spesific) works in win9x.
>
> And as I've explained (quoted below), this does cause the kind of
> problems you're addressing. And they're *Microsoft's* problems, since
> the app isn't supposed to have to be re-written to work on NT.
It doesn't need to be re-written for NT.
It need to be written correctly the first tim.
> Had Microsoft provided some method of setting machine-wide configuration
> settings without running aground of permissions, this problem wouldn't
> occur.
Pardon?
You don't *want* anybody to be able to set a machine wide configuration!
That is whole *point* in permissions.
That nobody except the administrator can set a machine wide configuration!
> >> [...]So they cram all their stuff into the local
> >> machine branch instead of the local user branch of the registry (thus
> >> allowing all users of the system to share the settings, since they're
> >> really all the same person). Doing it the way you want would mean that
> >> accidentally "logging in" as a different user would make the software
> >> non-functional. Its easier and slightly more intuitive than doing
> >> things right.
> >
> >No, it's not.
> >Not by a long shot.
> >"allowing all users of the system to share the settings, since they're
> >really all the same person" is a silly statement.
>
> I concur. But that's a failure of WinDOS that you're just going to have
> to deal with.
No, it's not.
> >You don't accidently log on as another user, even if that user has no
> >password.
>
> Sure you do. Sometimes you do it on purpose, too, expecting Windows to
> give you a different desktop or set of user configuration settings.
> Either way, WinDOS fails, and NT adds to the confusion.
If I log on as a different user on purpose, I *expect* to get different user
settings, and that is what I get.
> >And if you do, you should get the other's user settings.
> >Because that it how it should work.
>
> Precisely; you should get the other user's settings. Which is why app
> developers put them in local.machine instead of local.user. You see how
> that works?
No!
If it's a user spesific settings, they belong in the HKCU, because they
*are* user *spesific*, which mean that each user should have its own.
> >Right now, OE is taking 15MB (peak at 30MB), IE 7MB (peak at 17MB).
> >Netscape reached 40MB (peak at 65MB at which point I terminated it
because
> >it seem to just want more and more) easily, by simply surfing with *one*
> >window open. And just openning it would take 22- 25MB.
> >Trying to do things with more than one window open increase memory usage
in
> >a totally unacceptable ways.
>
> Like I said, the only thing that makes Netscape any good at all is that
> its better than IE.
I can quite easily read what the OS does with my memory, and even assuming
you are correct, which I doubt, Netscape *still* took over 65MB.
Everything else *put together* only took about twice that much!
------------------------------
From: "Ayende Rahien" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: Windoze 2000 - just as shitty as ever
Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 13:31:55 +0200
"T. Max Devlin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> Said Ayende Rahien in alt.destroy.microsoft on Sun, 3 Dec 2000 00:19:58
> >> That would be Netscapes fault, then, since this isn't a problem endemic
> >> to Unix, as it is in Windows. Since Netscape was originally designed
on
> >> Windows, this isn't very surprising.
> >
> >Typical, blame windows.
>
> Uh huh. See how the instance turns into an example using a reasoned
> argument?
>
> >Doesn't work in this case, Netscape 6 is a rebuild from scratch, you
know.
> >It was designed to be multi-platfrom.
>
> But according to your argument, they botched the job. Since the error
> they introduced could easily be understood to be a "windows-ism", being
> the assumption that the system is effectively a single-user system, it
> illustrates my argument rather well.
How it could be a windows-ism error?
Since they are supposed to develop to multi-platform, and Win9x is the only
wide-spread system out there that doesn't have permissions, that is their
error.
If you program for *nix, you need to take this into consideration, if they
only tested N6 on *nix running as root... Well, my
already-lower-than-see-level appriciation to them just got lower.
> >> >Netscape 6 require /usr/local/netscape to have read/write to *all*
users.
> >> >Since it stores *user spesifics* settings in there, instead of storing
them
> >> >in /home/<user>/netsacpe
> >>
> >> You'll notice none of this is hidden inside of a binary hierarchical
> >> database with no public specification. Just files (text files, maybe,
> >> but this is Netscape, so I can't be sure) in a regular old directory.
> >> If any of this is even true, as you say.
> >
> >Point?
>
> Point being that your presumption that this is comparable or even
> analogous to the registry is fatally flawed.
No, it's not.
It store user spesific settings in a place where they don't belong.
The way it does it doesn't have anything to do with it.
> >> No, it isn't. Neither /usr nor /home nor how applications store their
> >> configurations has anything to do with "linux/unix". This is a
Netscape
> >> problem. If it isn't an Ayende Rahien problem, and you just don't have
> >> it set up correctly.
> >>
> >> Doesn't that just piss you off? I insist that an application being
> >> brain-dead is the OSes fault on Windows, but the app's fault on Linux,
> >> *just* because Microsoft monopolizes. How unfair, huh?
> >
> >Being aware to your own problems is a good thing.
> >Now all you've to do is to solve them.
>
> They should be mostly solved by June, I expect, since by the beginning
> of March Microsoft will begin the split.
Bah!
Even assuming that they split MS, it wouldn't change a single thing.
Windows will still be the most widely used OS around.
Windows will still have most application developed to it.
Nothing much will change, except that Office & IE will be done by a sperate
company.
> >> >9x applications that does this are violating rules of writing software
to
> >> >windows.
> >>
> >> Which is why I say its Windows fault; why are there rules if they're so
> >> readily violated?
> >
> >Lazy programming?
>
> I would concur; Microsoft does engage in some of the laziest programming
> ever seen.
No, lazy programming on the side of the ISVs.
------------------------------
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt,comp.os.ms-windows,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: Windows 2000 sucks compared to linux
From: Ketil Z Malde <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2000 11:35:49 GMT
"Ayende Rahien" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>> It might be a little more stable on one of those giga-everything
>> boxes, but who needs to spend $100,000+ when you can get a reliable
>> Linux server for under $5000?
> TPC tests include TCO for five years,
No it doesn't. It includes support contracts for five years, that's
not exactly the same thing.
> Win2K is still the clear winner in *both* price *and* performance.
Well, in a sense. But mostly, TPC-C proves that PCs are the cheapest
way to get aggregate performance. Compaq/Microsoft scores higher than
IBM/DB2, which isn't surprising, since they have 50% more CPU power.
They win price/performance, since Compaq has cheaper equipment and
pays less for Windows licenses.
The configuraions are entirely insane, nobody in their right mind
would set up a database like this, anyway.
> If you think that you can reach one tenth of the level that the Win2K
> cluster did with a 10,000$ linux machine, than you are mad.
In particular since the Win2K cluster costs close to $6M for the
hardware and support contract alone.
> Win2K broke performance records, Linux isn't even a runner-up.
Personally, I think there's a good chance for Linux for making the top
of the list, if somebody put up the resources for it. I'm not aware
of any inherent design issues that would hinder it.
Microsoft SQL server doesn't seem so hot compared to IBM DB2, which
achieves 10% lower score on two thirds of the CPU power.
-kzm
--
If I haven't seen further, it is by standing in the footprints of giants
------------------------------
From: "Ayende Rahien" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt,comp.os.ms-windows,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: Windows 2000 sucks compared to linux
Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 13:35:28 +0200
"Ketil Z Malde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> "Ayende Rahien" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>
> >> It might be a little more stable on one of those giga-everything
> >> boxes, but who needs to spend $100,000+ when you can get a reliable
> >> Linux server for under $5000?
>
> > TPC tests include TCO for five years,
>
> No it doesn't. It includes support contracts for five years, that's
> not exactly the same thing.
>
> > Win2K is still the clear winner in *both* price *and* performance.
>
> Well, in a sense. But mostly, TPC-C proves that PCs are the cheapest
> way to get aggregate performance. Compaq/Microsoft scores higher than
> IBM/DB2, which isn't surprising, since they have 50% more CPU power.
> They win price/performance, since Compaq has cheaper equipment and
> pays less for Windows licenses.
>
> The configuraions are entirely insane, nobody in their right mind
> would set up a database like this, anyway.
>
> > If you think that you can reach one tenth of the level that the Win2K
> > cluster did with a 10,000$ linux machine, than you are mad.
>
> In particular since the Win2K cluster costs close to $6M for the
> hardware and support contract alone.
Yep, it would be 10 years or so before a 10,000$ machine would be
comparable.
> > Win2K broke performance records, Linux isn't even a runner-up.
>
> Personally, I think there's a good chance for Linux for making the top
> of the list, if somebody put up the resources for it. I'm not aware
> of any inherent design issues that would hinder it.
IBM could've done it.
Why didn't they?
> Microsoft SQL server doesn't seem so hot compared to IBM DB2, which
> achieves 10% lower score on two thirds of the CPU power.
Why didn't IBM put same/higher machines to the test?
------------------------------
From: "Erik Funkenbusch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: how come Dell makes you buy Windows with all their PC's?
Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 06:06:40 -0600
"Charlie Ebert" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> On Mon, 4 Dec 2000 01:06:43 -0600, Erik Funkenbusch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> >The problem is that it's not in Dell's best interests to sell you a
computer
> >without Windows. They'll sell you a Linux system, because they don't
want
> >to lose that piece of the market, but selling a computer without any OS
puts
> >them at a disadvantage.
> >
> >What disadvantage, you ask? The more copies of Windows they sell, the
> >cheaper their cost to buy it per unit, the more profit per unit they
make.
> >Since their competitors are also doing things to get cheaper per unit
costs,
> >they must as well. If they allowed people to buy computers without an
OS,
> >their profits would go down.
>
> Their profits would go down?
>
> Well, to sell a computer without an OS is brainless but
> I have to disagree with you about your comment on profits
> going down. Dell isn't making any money for installing
> Windows.
Look, Dell knows that 90% of their users will want windows. 1% will want
Linux, and 9% will want no OS. If they sell that 9% Windows, then they
lower their cost to buy windows by another $3 per copy, making them an extra
100 million dollars in profit over a year versus selling 9% fewer copies of
windows and having a higher cost for the other 90% of the machines they
sell.
The cost they save on the 9% will not make up for the 90% unless they charge
you at least 10% surcharge for being OS less.
I of course pulled those numbers out of thin air, but it demonstrates how
Dell will lose money by selling a significant number of OS-less PC's.
------------------------------
From: "Erik Funkenbusch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: Windoze 2000 - just as shitty as ever
Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 06:08:27 -0600
"Charlie Ebert" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> >> So you're saying TCP/IP is not built into the NT kernel, but is built
into
> >> the Linux kernel?
> >
> >Correct.
> >
> >> I guess I don't understand what this thread is now belaboring.
> >
> >It's belaboring the point the mlw made a silly statement about having to
> >reboot to remove TCP/IP in windows (presumably implying that you don't
have
> >to in Linux, which was wrong).
>
> Reboot Linux to remove tcp/ip?
Note the word *REMOVE*.
> Fukenbusch! Your on drugs!
>
> You don't have to reboot Linux for ANYTHING EXCEPT, changing out
> the kernel! And you don't have to change the kernel to turn off
> TCP/IP.
Turning off is not removing. In order to remove TCP/IP, you must rebuild
the kernel without it.
> Now, they may have finally come around and fixed W2K to finally
> allow people to adjust network settings without rebooting the
> box, but you are not going to feed anybody here this line of
> crap about having to reboot Linux to adjust or just turn off
> TCP/IP. That's just total bullshit and your not going to
> get away with it.
*REMOVE*, not *TURN OFF*. Enhance your reading comprehension skills
Charlie.
------------------------------
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt,comp.os.ms-windows,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: Windows 2000 sucks compared to linux
From: Ketil Z Malde <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2000 12:08:37 GMT
"Ayende Rahien" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>> Microsoft SQL server doesn't seem so hot compared to IBM DB2, which
>> achieves 10% lower score on two thirds of the CPU power.
> Why didn't IBM put same/higher machines to the test?
You'll have to ask them, of course, but my guess is that they don't
want to keep wasting millions of dollars on what essentially is a
mindless pissing contest with no link to reality.
And of course, then Compaq would put together an even larger
cluster...
And anyway, IBM holds a record on unclustered benchmarks that Compaq
can't hold a candle to. Their best attempt is three quarters of IBM's
score, and that is running Oracle - just like IBM is.
-kzm
--
If I haven't seen further, it is by standing in the footprints of giants
------------------------------
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