Linux-Advocacy Digest #652, Volume #31 Mon, 22 Jan 01 10:13:02 EST
Contents:
Re: I am preparing to teach a Linux class and I am soliciting advice ("FranckA")
Re: Why "uptime" is important. (Bruce Scott TOK)
Re: Why "uptime" is important. (Bruce Scott TOK)
Re: Why "uptime" is important. (Bruce Scott TOK)
Re: Why "uptime" is important. (Paul Hustava)
Re: Games? Who cares about games? (Bruce Scott TOK)
Re: Why "uptime" is important. (Edward Rosten)
Re: Multiple standards don't constitute choice (Roberto Alsina)
Re: Multiple standards don't constitute choice (Roberto Alsina)
Re: A salutary lesson about open source ("Chad Myers")
Re: A salutary lesson about open source ("Chad Myers")
Re: A salutary lesson about open source ("Chad Myers")
Re: I am preparing to teach a Linux class and I am soliciting advice (Mark)
Re: Linux 2.4 Major Advance ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: A salutary lesson about open source (Bob Hauck)
Re: Linux is crude and inconsistent. (Bob Hauck)
Re: Why "uptime" is important. ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "FranckA" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: I am preparing to teach a Linux class and I am soliciting advice
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 23:06:23 +0930
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.linux,comp.os.linux.questions,comp.os.linux.admin,comp.os.linux.help,linux.redhat
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
First and foremost, teach them how to INSTALL linux in both GUI and
text mode.
Teach them about Partitioning and using fdisk, fips etc.....
Teach them about the different X window managers and how to install and
load them during bootup.
TEACH THEM ABOUT LILO !!! and especially about the 1024 cylinder limit
Teach them how to use BOTH emacs and vi, but also show them the GUI
options.
Show them how to connect to the Internet using ppp. This will most
definately be one of the questions they will ask. Show them how in both
KDE and Gnome, and also netcfg....
Show them that they can use other Office products instead of MS Office,
Show them Star Office, Abi-word (suite), K-Office etc
Hope this helps you a little
--
FranckA
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Webpage: http://www.ozemail.com.au/~geisha
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Bruce Scott TOK)
Subject: Re: Why "uptime" is important.
Date: 22 Jan 2001 14:36:58 +0100
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
mlw <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Lloyd Llewellyn wrote:
>>
>> > If I could get her on Linux, i.e. get a good tax package for her, I would.
>>
>> Yes - on the desktop it comes down to applications...
>
>Not the generic desktop of word processors, spreadsheets, etc. but maybe the
>specialized desktop.
>
>She actually said to me that she would not need to buy Turbo Tax next year,
>because all the information and forms would be on the IRS and MASS web sites. I
>will put her on Linux if that is true. She will be happier for it.
Does IRS still put everything up in Windows .exe format?
--
cu,
Bruce
drift wave turbulence: http://www.rzg.mpg.de/~bds/
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Bruce Scott TOK)
Subject: Re: Why "uptime" is important.
Date: 22 Jan 2001 14:40:39 +0100
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Edward Rosten <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> >HTML is an interesting thing to use for an example. I have never seen
>> >any WYSIWYG that produced HTML that was very usable for anything other
>> >than a static page. Certainly difficult to integrate with PHP, ASP,
>> >java, etc. I often end up "post editing" my web pages in vi, because the
>> >graphical programs always mess up the HTML.
>>
>> All my pages are static and I've written every one of them in Emacs. It
>> is really very easy, especially when your only objective is to inform.
>>
>> I might try some of that "dynamic" stuff but I don't have the slightest
>> understanding of it...
>
>I always write web pages in vi. I do some dynamic page creation, usually
>with C or AWK or shell scripts (depending on how quickly I want it to
>run or write it). They just chuck HTML to the standard output which is
>redirected by Apache to some port. Obviously, you need to be up to speed
>with HTML to do it, but its not very hard.
I would like to know how to do "include files" in HTML, like I do in
Fortran...
>> >Oh, and to address "WYSIWYG" criteria. There is no such capability in
>> >HTML, and people that assume there is always make web pages with serious
>> >formatting errors. The rule is write the page and try it on many
>> >browsers with different fonts and screen resolutions.
>>
>> Same as with any typesetting system whose output you expect to look
>> professional.
>
>Which is why so many pages look bad. The designer assumes everyone has
>the same browser and display settings as them. I usually test my pages
>in StarOffice, Netscape and Lynx (I don't bother with IE because I don't
>run windows).
What I really hate is those fixed font pages that Netscape cannot
override (they often don't show up at all in Lynx, sure sign of a bad
site, but much of the trade press is this way). I have to save the
source into a generic file to which I have a bookmark, edit the file to
change the font sizes, and then read the page. Some newspapers now have
things set up so that you cannot save the page or even capture it with
the mouse (example: Washington Post)... if you cannot read their fonts
you are lost. I like big type you see...
--
cu,
Bruce
drift wave turbulence: http://www.rzg.mpg.de/~bds/
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Bruce Scott TOK)
Subject: Re: Why "uptime" is important.
Date: 22 Jan 2001 14:45:23 +0100
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Edward Rosten <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Unfortunately, I have some automatically generated web pages that seem
>more portable as nonstandard HTML. The bit in question is putting images
>inside <pre> tags. If I use that for the layout, instead of tables the
>pages load faster and renders properly in Lynx as well as Netscape,
>since Lynx does a rotten job of tables.
You should not force your layout on your readers... this is the WWW, not
a magazine.
I only use <pre></pre> tage for stuff like author contact lists, or
formulae and very simple tables, for example, these ones on fusion
reaction energies:
http://www.rzg.mpg.de/~bds/phys/fusion-energies.html
I just checked that in Lynx so it's OK.
--
cu,
Bruce
drift wave turbulence: http://www.rzg.mpg.de/~bds/
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Paul Hustava)
Subject: Re: Why "uptime" is important.
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 13:59:28 GMT
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Bruce Scott TOK)
wrote:
>In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
>mlw <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>Lloyd Llewellyn wrote:
>>>
>>> > If I could get her on Linux, i.e. get a good tax package for her, I would.
>>>
>>> Yes - on the desktop it comes down to applications...
>>
>>Not the generic desktop of word processors, spreadsheets, etc. but maybe the
>>specialized desktop.
>>
>>She actually said to me that she would not need to buy Turbo Tax next year,
>>because all the information and forms would be on the IRS and MASS web sites.
> I
>>will put her on Linux if that is true. She will be happier for it.
>
>Does IRS still put everything up in Windows .exe format?
>
No they don't, they're just zip archives with a self-extract
(MS-Dos) executable header. Just download them and type;
`unzip <filename>.exe` -- it works, I just tried it.
--
Paul Hustava - [EMAIL PROTECTED]
PGP key found in the ususal places
If at first you don't succeed, then skydiving is not for you.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Bruce Scott TOK)
Subject: Re: Games? Who cares about games?
Date: 22 Jan 2001 14:59:31 +0100
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
mlw <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>I don't know anyone that really plays games on their computers. is that out of
>the ordinary? When people mention games as an issue, I often wonder why.
>
>I have a Nintendo for games, why would I waste a computer on games?
I don't play any serious games on computers... no staying power :-)
I play things like Asteroids, Mahjongg and Shisen-Sho under Linux (they
are KDE programs but well enough written to function properly under
fvwm2).
I might play real wargames if any became available, but I have never
seen a computer wargame anywhere nearly as good as the board games from
wargaming's heyday in the late 1970s.
--
cu,
Bruce
drift wave turbulence: http://www.rzg.mpg.de/~bds/
------------------------------
From: Edward Rosten <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Why "uptime" is important.
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 14:18:56 +0000
Lloyd Llewellyn wrote:
>
> >> Like application availability. I've spent the last couple of days looking
> >> for a WYSIWYG web page editor so
> >
> > These don't really exist. HTML is not a page layout language, so it will look
> > different on every machine. What you see may be what *you* get, but not what
> > the person who downloads your page gets.
>
> I'm aware of this, many people have replied similarly, but it's off-point.
>
> I was looking for a visual web page layout designer. Call it whatever you like.
> I want to lay out the web page, insert tables, move regions of the table around
> within the table. I want to be able to switch between source and graphical
> views, and edit in both. Some website organization features would be nice too.
>
> When I looked for a tool like this, all I found were text editing tools, some
> that colored tags and did some indenting.
>
> I'm not arguing the superiority of one over the other. One is easy to use, the
> other results in cleaner HTML.
>
> ...but the reason I brought this up in the first place is to make the point
> that, often, up-time is not a critical factor on the desktop. For a majority of
> non-technical users, application availability is; and that's why I cited the web
> page editor example.
>
> FWIW, I think this thread is instructive in itself. Imagine if a non-technical
> person were to take that big step and give Linux a try. He gets on the
> newsgroups asking about a FrontPage or Dreamweaver analog, explicitly stating
> that he wants a visual design tool. Instead, he is directed to use vi, emacs,
> or even Bluefish for that matter.
>
> That person is going to sigh, and then he's going to wipe his Linux partition to
> make room for more Windows files.
OK. Well, there are several. StarOffice and Netscape Composer will quite
happily put out HTML (from what I remember, neither was too bad). I
would advise anyone to bear in mind that what they see on the seceen,
though, is not what the other people will see.
These aren't incredibly powerful apps, but they make a pass at it. I
haven't further investigated because I don't use visual web page tools.
-Ed
--
Did you know that the reason that windows steam up in cold|Edward Rosten
weather is because of all the fish in the atmosphere? |u98ejr
- The Hackenthorpe Book of lies |@
|eng.ox.ac.uk
------------------------------
From: Roberto Alsina <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Multiple standards don't constitute choice
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 14:13:32 GMT
In article <LZda6.184771$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Everyone goes on about how Linux offers me the 'choice' of which
desktop I
> can use, unlike Windows. However, choice here does not equate to
consistant
> style.
Of course not. They are not related.
> If I want all my file save/open dialogs to all look the same - like
the KDE
> style, or MOTIF or Gtk, can I do that with the Linux desktop? No I
can't -
> my choice is restricted here to whatever toolktip the application is
> created with.
Yes, you can. Use the apps that match whatever style you prefer,
and don't use the others. Or use all and live with the inconsistency.
Your choice.
> If I restrict myself to KDE only applications then I lose certain
system
> configuration tools as there isn't one written for KDE (that's
certainly
> true of the Mandrake distribution). Linuxconf is one example, it can
run in
> text mode or GUI - but uses the Gtk toolkit.
Argh. Use the web interface. If the web interface doesn't work, Mandrake
or your install is broken, and it's not a general problem.
> It is true that on Windows, application do use different styles of
file
> open/save dialogs - however, there is a system wide _standard_ that
99% of
> applications use. Unfortunately, you can't change this standard - like
have
> different shapes buttons etc. (and this is what I would call a
"choice" -
> not the varying standards Linux offers).
Ok, so you want choice. But you don't want OTHERs to have choice (say,
the ones who provide you with the software in the first place)?
The linux way has its benefits and it has its disadvantages.
See what's bigger for you, act in consequence.
--
Roberto Alsina
Sent via Deja.com
http://www.deja.com/
------------------------------
From: Roberto Alsina <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Multiple standards don't constitute choice
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 14:17:30 GMT
In article <uEla6.49124$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Bob Hauck wrote:
> > In my mind the real value of KDE and Gnome is not "consistent look
and
> > feel", but in having standard programming API's with modern
features.
> > This makes it easier for programmers to come up to speed, resulting
in
> > more apps being available.
>
> But Gtk and Qt/KDE are totally different. It makes it difficult to
write an
> application that is neither KDE or GNOME centric.
Let's not get hyperbolic here. You mean totally different for a
programmer? Sure! Just like Delphi and VB.
Or you mean totally different for a user? In that case, it's a gross
exageration. For example, I am pretty sure that square beveled thing
that says "OK" in xchat is a button not unlike that square beveled
thing saying "OK" in ksirc.
--
Roberto Alsina
Sent via Deja.com
http://www.deja.com/
------------------------------
From: "Chad Myers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: A salutary lesson about open source
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 14:19:53 GMT
"Bobby D. Bryant" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> Chad Myers wrote:
>
> > If you want to argue, then let's argue on facts and merit, not
> > supposition.
>
> OK. I'm eagerly awaiting your reply to my new thread entitled "Uptimes by
> OS, for the Hot 100".
Well, I may or may not join it (if it ever shows up on my news server, which
it hasn't yet) but the statements I made were in relation to this thread.
-Chad
------------------------------
From: "Chad Myers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: A salutary lesson about open source
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 14:20:50 GMT
"Bobby D. Bryant" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> Chad Myers wrote:
>
> > Yes, IIS doesn't have a huge lead in the Hot 100, however, it's #2 at last
> > figure
> > (however the hot 100 changes with great frequency, it's entirely possible
that
> > IIS has retaken the lead).
>
> Sorry, I only looked up the OS, not the Web server. As of yesterday, Solaris
ran
> 35, Windows ran 20 (plus probably two more unknowns), and Linux ran 19. Of
the
> Windows systems, only 11 have upgraded to W2K a year after it was released.
> Hardly a big endorsement of Windows, let alone W2K.
We were talking about the web server. If you want to change the subject, please
do so, but don't argue about A, and when I provide facts, change the subject
to B and attack me on it.
-Chad
------------------------------
From: "Chad Myers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: A salutary lesson about open source
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 14:24:33 GMT
"Bobby D. Bryant" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > I'm talking about the Fortune 500, now, which is a different argument.
>
> Different, yes. But relevant?
Um, I guess, since that's what most of this thread was about. Have you been
paying attention? Just because you don't like the outcome of this present
argument, doesn't mean you can change the subject and declare the old one
irrelevant.
The Fortune 500 is never irrelevant.
> > Yes, the Fortune 500 may not be the hit-leaders of the world, but they
> > certainly do carry a large porition of the total number of hits out there.
>
> How large a portion?
iPlanet + IIS make up almost 80%, apache makes up less than 15%.
> > What's more important is that most of these guys have invested copious
> > amounts of cash into their web infrastructure,
>
> Yes, lots of big corporations spend their money foolishly.
Uhm hmm.
That's why they're multi-billion dollar companies. They take customer
service very lightly, right?
>
> > and it's important to
> > note that many (as part of the majority) have chosen IIS as their platform
> > to run the whole thing from. Many have also chosen iPlanet. Together,
> > iPlanet (aka Netscape Enterprise Server) and IIS make up the large majority
> > of the Fortune 500 platform.
>
> Ah, yes. Running iPlanet is a big endorsement of Microsoft's products too!
I'm not advocating IIS as much as I'm showing that Apache isn't taken seriously
in the grown-up world and that the Netcraft numbers are inflated and
misrepresentative.
Do you have an atention span problem? I post 15 posts on the same subject, and
you seem to completely forget all those.
>
> > Apache barely makes a showing.
>
> Barely makes a showing? What was that percentage again?
14.9%. Compared to IIS which has the lead at 40%, and iPlanet which has 36.9%
Other is 8.2%.
-Chad
------------------------------
From: Mark <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux,comp.os.linux.questions,comp.os.linux.admin
Subject: Re: I am preparing to teach a Linux class and I am soliciting advice
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 14:29:11 GMT
In article <94gqn6$rmd$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
Jeff Silverman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi. I am an experienced Linux/UNIX sysadmin and I am getting ready
to teach a class on Linux for
> the Communications Workers of America and WashTech. I am soliciting
comments and suggestions from
> people in the Linux community about what I ought to teach.
>
I depends on the goals of your client. Find out WHY these workers are
being sent to school. Is it education for their jobs? If so, find out
what they are doing on the job that requires them to use unix/linux.
Are they installing, system administration, network administration,
what?
Then find out what your client hopes to have in an employee once that
employee returns to work with his newfound knowledge. There is nothing
worse than sending an employee to school and the employee still cannot
do what is expected of him once he returns.
Mark
--
Please reply to this newsgroup as my Deja mail
is used as a spam catcher only!
Sent via Deja.com
http://www.deja.com/
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Linux 2.4 Major Advance
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: 23 Jan 2001 00:41:19 +1100
"Chad Myers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
>> So c't, who has a Spec license (can Mindcraft say that?) and comes from
>> the same people who, in a magzine called "ix" extensively cover Windows NT,
>> now has "grudges against Microsoft"?
>>
>> Maybe you should, just for a change, *read* the magazine you are
>> criticizing?
>Please show me an article in c't that is favorable to Microsoft.
>Just one.
Issue 2/2001, pages 120-121. A test of "Microsoft WorksSuite 2001".
The only test of MS software in this, the latest issue that has made it
to Oz, and it comes to the conlusion that the packet is well worth the
money, and that in particular the World Atlas component is "so good as to
be without any competition".
Grudges, indeed....
Bernie
--
When I want a peerage, I shall buy it like an honest man
Lord Northcliffe
British newspaper proprietor, 1865-1922
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Bob Hauck)
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: A salutary lesson about open source
Reply-To: hauck[at]codem{dot}com
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 14:51:40 GMT
On Mon, 22 Jan 2001 00:14:50 -0600, Bobby D. Bryant
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Chad Myers wrote:
>> and it's important to note that many (as part of the majority) have
>> chosen IIS as their platform to run the whole thing from. Many have
>> also chosen iPlanet. Together, iPlanet (aka Netscape Enterprise
>> Server) and IIS make up the large majority of the Fortune 500
>> platform.
>
> Ah, yes. Running iPlanet is a big endorsement of Microsoft's products too!
Of the sample that Chad himself posted, all of the companies running
iPlanet were doing so on a non-MS platform, hardly an endorsement of MS.
As for the statement about "iPlanet and IIS make up the majority", you
could make exactly the same statement about iPlanet and Apache, since
iPlanet has more sites than both of the others put together (speaking of
Chad's sample again).
>> Apache barely makes a showing.
>
>Barely makes a showing? What was that percentage again?
Of Chad's hand-selected sample, it was 3 IIS vs 4 Apache. He can't
prove his claim even if he gets to hand-select the sites!
> Who whould choose iPlanet today?
Good question. A few years ago companies used iPlanet to get SSL
support, but that's no longer necessary.
--
-| Bob Hauck
-| Codem Systems, Inc.
-| http://www.codem.com/
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Bob Hauck)
Crossposted-To: alt.linux.sux
Subject: Re: Linux is crude and inconsistent.
Reply-To: hauck[at]codem{dot}com
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 14:58:57 GMT
On Sun, 21 Jan 2001 20:45:35 +0200, Ayende Rahien <Please@don't.spam> wrote:
>Just a tidbit, I heard that MS is going to port Office to Mac OS X, this
>probably mean that all other *nix will have it as well, doesn't it?
Nope. My understanding is that the OS-X GUI is based on Display
Postscript instead of X.
--
-| Bob Hauck
-| Codem Systems, Inc.
-| http://www.codem.com/
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Why "uptime" is important.
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 14:00:24 GMT
On 22 Jan 2001 08:40:09 GMT, "Joseph T. Adams" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>In the case of Web design, there is no reason why even a nontechnical
>user can't use a text editor in one window and a browser open to the
>same file in another, make changes in one window, and preview them in
>the other. There's no reason he or she can't or shouldn't learn to
This one sentence probably more than anything indicates why Linux will
never make it on the desktop - at least if this attitude prevails.
------------------------------
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