Linux-Advocacy Digest #233, Volume #32 Fri, 16 Feb 01 09:13:06 EST
Contents:
Re: Microsoft says Linux threatens innovation ("Edward Rosten")
Re: Linux Threat: non-existant (Tim Hanson)
Re: The Windows guy. (Tim Hanson)
Re: Microsoft seeks government help to stop Linux (Tim Hanson)
Re: Interesting article ("Les Mikesell")
Re: Interesting article ("Les Mikesell")
Re: ReiserFS ("ne...")
Re: Politics (was Re: MS to Enforce Registration - or Else) (Hugh Lawson)
Re: DOS2Unix (Tim Hanson)
Re: Interesting article (Giuliano Colla)
Re: Interesting article (Giuliano Colla)
Re: Microsoft seeks government help to stop Linux (mlw)
Re: Interesting article (Giuliano Colla)
Re: Microsoft says Linux threatens innovation (Tim Hanson)
Re: Microsoft seeks government help to stop Linux (Tim Hanson)
Re: Microsoft says Linux threatens innovation (Mike Martinet)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Edward Rosten" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Microsoft says Linux threatens innovation
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 13:09:48 +0000
> It's interesting to note that the whole phenomenon of Microsoft vs. Open
> Source most likely wouldn't exist had IBM not (albeit, unthinkingly)
> 'open-sourced' the PC architecture.
Not true. Visit www.gnu.org and look under `Why we are here'
-Ed
--
Did you know that the reason that windows steam up in cold|Edward Rosten
weather is because of all the fish in the atmosphere? |u98ejr
- The Hackenthorpe Book of lies |@
|eng.ox.ac.uk
------------------------------
From: Tim Hanson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Linux Threat: non-existant
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 13:12:07 GMT
Chad Myers wrote:
>
> "Bill Shine" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:3eHh6.215173$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> >
> > "Jan Johanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> > news:3a86d8e7$0$43853$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > >
> > http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/news/0,4586,2684374,00.html?chkpt=zdnn_rt_
> > > latest
> > >
> >
> > > It's nice to see that technical staff is being dumped while the management
> > > teams from BOTH companies are staying around collecting their paychecks
> > and
> > > stock options. Yea, you need all that management but who needs technical
> > > support eh?
> > >
> > > But, really - who cares, right? According to linux supporters linux has
> > > newsgroups and websites filled with support by unpaid (unknown,
> > uncertified,
> > > even untrusted) volunteers who we know are just hanging around every
> > minute
> > > of the day waiting to solve YOUR companies problem on your timetable, I'm
> > > sure.
> > Microsoft support is no better than linux support.
>
> What Linux support?
>
> > With a microsoft support package, call in a problem and wait, for three
> > days to > infinity.
>
> Blatant lie.
>
> -Chad
>
> <SNIP rest, based on false premise and idiotic logic>
Chihad, if you're not on medication, start. If you are on medication,
stop.
--
Anyone can hold the helm when the sea is calm.
-- Publius Syrus
------------------------------
From: Tim Hanson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: The Windows guy.
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 13:20:13 GMT
Edward Rosten wrote:
>
> In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, "Tim Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
>
> > Edward Rosten wrote:
> >>
> >> In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, "Tim Hanson"
> >> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >>
> >> > Aaron Kulkis wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> Edward Rosten wrote:
> >> >> >
> >> >> > > He's talking non-interactive. With an interactive editor like
> >> >> > > Notepad or vi, one must manually open the file into the text
> >> >> > > buffer and do
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Vi can do noninteractive stuff. Wirte a script for the ex abck end
> >> >> > and execute that, just like ed scripts, but better.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > -Ed
> >> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >> "Ed is the one true editor...."
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> > Ed??!? You use ed? What a wimp! Anything above DEBUG is a waste of
> >> > resources. It's a little hard to duplicate graphics in hex,
> >> > though...
> >> > :-)
> >>
> >> Pfeh! When I *really* want to get something done, I use cat.
> >>
> >> -ed
> >>
> >
> > Sorry for the delay in responding. One of the LEDs above my front panel
> > switches is acting up. I get distracted and lose my place in the file.
>
> I recently invested in a Teletype. My paper bills have gone through the
> roof, but I can now use line orientated tools such as ed, rather than
> having to rely on the 1 byte at a time leds on the front.
>
> I really think that these teletypes will be the next big thing.
>
Oy. Too much bloat. I'd have to start buying 60 minute cassettes.
--
Anyone can hold the helm when the sea is calm.
-- Publius Syrus
------------------------------
From: Tim Hanson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft seeks government help to stop Linux
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 13:31:51 GMT
Edward Rosten wrote:
>
> > Wrapping himself in the American flag, Microsoft's Allchin says: ''I'm
> > an American, I believe in the American Way,''
No he's not. He's from Redmond, which is eleven inches above the rest
of the world. His ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) closest glimpse of America is
the Red Robin at Redmond Square.
> he said. ''I worry if the
> > government encourages open source, and I don't think we've done enough
> > education of policy makers to understand the threat.''
> >
> > What in the WORLD is that supposed to mean?
He ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) believes that if let go, open sourcers will
multiply like rabbits and flood Redmond with cheap imported plastic
toys.
> >
> > SOMEONE NEEDS TO WATCH VERY CLOSELY THAT THIS "EDUCATION" DOES NOT COME
> > IN THE FORM OF MASSIVE POLITICAL DONATIONS.
Actually, I think Allchin ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) was just taking
advantage of a really dumb reporter who knows a little about investing
and nothing about computers. Anyone in the computer business wouldn't
have let him get away with that crap. But don't tell him
([EMAIL PROTECTED]).
>
> I believe that `political re-education' is quite common in dictatorships
>
> -Ed
>
> --
> Did you know that the reason that windows steam up in cold|Edward Rosten
> weather is because of all the fish in the atmosphere? |u98ejr
> - The Hackenthorpe Book of lies |@
> |eng.ox.ac.uk
--
Anyone can hold the helm when the sea is calm.
-- Publius Syrus
------------------------------
From: "Les Mikesell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Interesting article
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 13:32:35 GMT
"Chad Myers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:brRi6.38966$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>
> >
> > Sounds like you've sat through one too many windows pep
> > rallies there bubba -
>
> No, really, what has changed dramatically in Unix in the
> last 10 years?
Only the things that were done badly in the first place. Remember
that unix was developed as an elegant simplification of prior
overly bloated systems. The system that has been and continues
to change dramatically does so because it still hasn't gotten it
right, and obviously hasn't learned anything from the past.
> We still use telnet
Or rsh, or ssh. Most pictures really aren't worth a thousand words
but they take that much bandwidth.
> We still use crappy old XWindows
Yes, it works just fine.
> Unix still has the brain-dead permission bits security.
> Even though many Unix vendors have implemented DAC, many
> people still insist on using permission bits.
ACL's are only needed if you can't create a group to match the
group you want...
> Nothing's really changed.
The same code continues to compile, machines continue to run for years
at a time, the operators don't need a new certification every six months
to understand it. What's the problem?
Les Mikesell
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
------------------------------
From: "Les Mikesell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Interesting article
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 13:32:35 GMT
"Chad Myers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:FG2j6.25379$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>
> >
> > > But I've been told, and scolded over and over again that Linux
> > > isn't Unix.
> > >
> > > So which is it?
> >
> > You might try thinking for yourself -
> >
> > Do you always waver among various beliefs
> > depending on whatever you were last told?
> >
> > What do you think, Chad?
>
> No, really, I want to know.
>
> When it's good for Linux, Linux is Unix. When it's bad for Linux,
> Linux isn't Unix.
>
> I wish you guys would make up your mind and stick to something,
> because it really just makes you look like idiots. But then,
> we always knew that, I guess.
If you type in 'make' and your code compiles and runs, why does it
matter if a trademark can be applied or not?
Les Mikesell
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
------------------------------
From: "ne..." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: ReiserFS
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 13:32:52 GMT
On Feb 16, 2001 at 07:50, mlw eloquently wrote:
>[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>>
>> mlw <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> > Well, I tried it. It is interesting, but no thanks. It seems slower than ext2
>> > for most everything I do.
>>
>> Really? Thats very strange. In my own calculations, I've noticed that with
>> reiserfs, my drives actually live up to their advertised throughput and seek
>> times, while with ext2 they hit *maybe* 80% max.
>>
>> I have an ATA/66 and an ATA/100 interface, one HD on the 66, two on the 100.
>>
>> Whats your setup like?
>
>Promise ATA66 card, 2.4.1 kernel, CONFIG_REISERFS_CHECK is NOT set, dual PIII.
>
>It was slow deleting, and had a scary and anoying ability to lock up my machine
>for half a second, periodically, under heavy load. (The mouse would even stop
>moving!)
Would be so kind as to report these issues to the Reiser crew?
I think they need to know about these performance issues.
--
Registered Linux User # 125653 (http://counter.li.org)
The American Dental Association announced today that most plaque tends
to form on teeth around 4:00 PM in the afternoon.
Film at 11:00.
8:29am up 11 days, 11:04, 7 users, load average: 0.08, 0.06, 0.00
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Hugh Lawson)
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.misc
Subject: Re: Politics (was Re: MS to Enforce Registration - or Else)
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 13:20:10 GMT
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Aaron Kulkis wrote:
>So why did Gore only challenge the counts in DEMONCROOK-controlled
>counties?
>
>Is that a sign that not even a Democrat candidate can trust
>a Democrat election board to do things properly?
I am a Democrat. Please take your politics to a political forum.
--
Hugh Lawson
Greensboro, North Carolina
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
------------------------------
From: Tim Hanson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: DOS2Unix
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 13:39:25 GMT
Karel Jansens wrote:
>
> In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, "Tim Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
>
> > Bloody Viking wrote:
> >>
> >> Mike Martinet ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
> >>
> >> : How can you not love Linux?
> >>
> >> [fun tale snipped[
> >>
> >> I have my own fun tale of how I came to the Linux fold. My very first
> >> computer was the old Commodore 64. I had it in 1984 and used it as late
> >> as 1993. During
> >>
> > <snip>
> > I did the Atari 8 - bit: I had all the books, all the upgrades, two
> > dozen discrete components with two dozen power supplies, SpartaDOS on a
> > cartridge, and ohmygawd a 10 meg hard drive. When it became apparent
> > that not only was the South not going to rise again but neither was
> > Atari, I bought an XT clone. Amber screen, 20 meg drive, all bootlegged
> > software from the gitgo. There was a '286 after that, then a '486.
> >
> > My intro to Linux was after I became thoroughly frustrated that IBM was
> > abandoning OS/2, right when Windows 95 was coming out. I put Windows 95
> > on my old 50mhz '486 Packard Bell, got frustrated because it was a
> > downgrade from Warp. I put my own computer together (first time! why
> > did I wait so long?). At the time I read a Byte mag article about
> > Lunux, so I bought a book with a Slackware CD on it, and installed. I
> > don't even remember the version anymore. It was before 2.0 by quite a
> > stretch. I couldn't get X working, so I played around with the command
> > line for a long time. Eventually I gravitated to SuSE. That '486 was
> > the last commercially produced computer I owned.
> >
> I don't know whether IBM had already "abandoned" OS/2 in 1995, seeing as
> up to middle to end 1996 OS/2 was still a very strong contender to
> Windows 95, with a healthy software development scene.
>
> In hindsight, the writing on the wall became quite apparent by early '97.
==============================
According to trial testimony, it was sacrificed on the evening of August
23, 1995 during negotiations with Microsoft on getting price for Windows
95, which was introduced the next day. Check out the testimony of the
anti-trust trial.
--
It's is not, it isn't ain't, and it's it's, not its, if you mean it
is. If you don't, it's its. Then too, it's hers. It isn't her's. It
isn't our's either. It's ours, and likewise yours and theirs.
-- Oxford University Press, Edpress News
------------------------------
From: Giuliano Colla <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Interesting article
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 13:40:40 GMT
Chad Myers wrote:
>
> "David Brown" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:96gq9v$ce4$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> >
> > Chad Myers wrote in message ...
> > >
> > >No, really, what has changed dramatically in Unix in the
> > >last 10 years?
> > >
> > >We still use telnet
> > >We still use crappy old XWindows
> > >Unix still has the brain-dead permission bits security.
> > >Even though many Unix vendors have implemented DAC, many
> > >people still insist on using permission bits.
> > >
> > >Nothing's really changed.
> > >
> > >-Chad
> > >
> >
> >
> > You have not actually tried using Linux, have you?
>
> But I've been told, and scolded over and over again that Linux
> isn't Unix.
>
> So which is it?
>
Unix is a large family of good OS's. Linux isn't Unix, it's
just one member of the family, such as AIX, HP-UX, etc. This
you already know, of course, but a troll is a troll.
Just to make a comparison, Windows Me isn't Windows.
Windows is a small family of crappy OS's. Windows ME is just
the crappiest member of the family, while Win2K is
purportedly the best one. But being nonetheless as crappy as
it can be, Microsoft has already started promoting the next
one (Whistler, or PX or whatever) with the promise that it
will be better. They're copying Linux KDE login screen and
Desktop, in order to make it at least *look* better.
--
Giuliano Colla
Before activating the tongue, make sure that the brain is
connected (anonymous)
------------------------------
From: Giuliano Colla <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Interesting article
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 13:42:07 GMT
Chad Myers wrote:
>
> "Dave Martel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > On Thu, 15 Feb 2001 14:10:15 GMT, "Chad Myers"
> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >"J Sloan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > >> Mike Byrns wrote:
> > >>
> > >> > Such weighty content Aaron ;-) UNIX doesn't really "develop".
> > >>
> > >> What is this I've been imagining the last 8 years then?
> > >>
> > >> The Unix systems I've used - Linux, Solaris, BSD - keep
> > >> gaining new features and refinements, and contrary to the
> > >> assertions of the misinformed, are still alive and well.
> > >>
> > >> > It's an old
> > >> > picture from the 60s that was done developing long ago.
> > >>
> > >> Sounds like you've sat through one too many windows pep
> > >> rallies there bubba -
> > >
> > >No, really, what has changed dramatically in Unix in the
> > >last 10 years?
> > >
> > >We still use telnet
> > >We still use crappy old XWindows
> >
> > You know, guys, I think we're all being had. Have you ever carried on
> > a conversation with that ELIZA program that pretends to be a
> > psychologist? Well, Chad kind of reminds me of that. I think we've all
> > been suckered in by someone's AUI* experiment.
> >
> > *AUI= Artificial Un-Intelligence
>
> Yet another post by the Penguinistas attacking the poster, rather
> than the merits of the post.
>
> By your ignoring the post, I assume you are in complete agreement.
>
By your being a stupid Wintroll, your assumptions have
nothing to do with reality.
--
Giuliano Colla
Before activating the tongue, make sure that the brain is
connected (anonymous)
------------------------------
From: mlw <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft seeks government help to stop Linux
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 08:47:03 -0500
Tim Hanson wrote:
>
> No doubt Allchin ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) knows full well what he's
> doing. He's extracting a little mileage out of Napster concerns to
> equate open source software to stealing songs over the 'net. I'm sure
> he and his cronies are having a laugh over the gullibility of that
> interviewer (and at how angry they made Linux advocates) now.
>
> These are evil people. Really down there.
That is something that concerns me. Microsoft is "evil" but not because it
intends to do wrong, but it intends to do without regard, and sometimes to the
spite, of others.
Looking back, M$ was once the little guy, and we cheered it on because we
thought it would change things. It has become Fidel Castro, using past
revolutionary glory to hide its crimes and be the "establishment." Meet the new
boss, same as the old boss. Perhaps we should have chosen CP/M, maybe Kildal
would have conducted business with just a few more scruples.
--
http://www.mohawksoft.com
------------------------------
From: Giuliano Colla <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Interesting article
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 13:50:12 GMT
Chad Myers wrote:
>
[snip]
>
> It seems to take no time in Windows. Windows is able to process files
> as fast or faster than Linux according to some benchmarks.
Mind to post them? Without reference it look just a lie.
>
> Some Unix systems have DAC and ACLs and it doesn't seem to slow them
> down much.
All Unixe's can have DAC and ACLs, Linux included. It's
seldom used because it's seldom useful. In most cases the
User/Group/Others scheme is better.
>
> -Chad
--
Giuliano Colla
Before activating the tongue, make sure that the brain is
connected (anonymous)
------------------------------
From: Tim Hanson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Microsoft says Linux threatens innovation
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 13:53:40 GMT
Mike Martinet wrote:
>
> > >Erik Funkenbusch wrote:
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Well, I don't particular agree with his comments in particular, though he
> > >> does have a partial point. Open Source does threaten commercial software
> > >> innovation. Why should a company (not just MS) invest millions into R&D
> > >> when open source peoplewill come along and offer a free version?
> > >
>
> It's interesting to note that the whole phenomenon of Microsoft vs. Open
> Source most likely wouldn't exist had IBM not (albeit, unthinkingly)
> 'open-sourced' the PC architecture.
Not true. It had nothing to do with PCs and a lot to do with
minicomputers, Richard Stallman, and his attempt to create a free Unix.
This was in reaction to the frankly exorbitant pricing of commercial
Unix and the developing Unix wars.
==========================================
From: RMS%MIT-OZ@mit-eddie
Newsgroups: net.unix-wizards,net.usoft
Subject: new UNIX implementation
Date: Tue, 27-Sep-83 12:35:59 EST
Organization: MIT AI Lab, Cambridge, MA
Free Unix!
Starting this Thanksgiving I am going to write a complete
Unix-compatible software system called GNU (for Gnu's Not Unix), and
give it away free(1) to everyone who can use it. Contributions of time,
money, programs and equipment are greatly needed.
=========================================
http://www.gnu.org/gnu/initial-announcement.html
He's still working on it, although by now it's not Unix-like anymore and
is called the Hurd. Meanwhile, Linus took up the slack in 1991 and
actually produced what we know today.
--
It's is not, it isn't ain't, and it's it's, not its, if you mean it
is. If you don't, it's its. Then too, it's hers. It isn't her's. It
isn't our's either. It's ours, and likewise yours and theirs.
-- Oxford University Press, Edpress News
------------------------------
From: Tim Hanson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft seeks government help to stop Linux
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 14:06:35 GMT
mlw wrote:
>
> Tim Hanson wrote:
> >
> > No doubt Allchin ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) knows full well what he's
> > doing. He's extracting a little mileage out of Napster concerns to
> > equate open source software to stealing songs over the 'net. I'm sure
> > he and his cronies are having a laugh over the gullibility of that
> > interviewer (and at how angry they made Linux advocates) now.
> >
> > These are evil people. Really down there.
>
> That is something that concerns me. Microsoft is "evil" but not because it
> intends to do wrong, but it intends to do without regard, and sometimes to the
> spite, of others.
>
> Looking back, M$ was once the little guy, and we cheered it on because we
> thought it would change things. It has become Fidel Castro, using past
> revolutionary glory to hide its crimes and be the "establishment." Meet the new
> boss, same as the old boss. Perhaps we should have chosen CP/M, maybe Kildal
> would have conducted business with just a few more scruples.
I like your analogy.
What we could have used was a more competitively balanced growth
pattern, without the tyranny of one vendor, but the fact is that Gates
is the perfect monopolist and for now that covers his immaturity and
lack of sound business skills. People like Allchin are just soldiers.
It all comes back to Gates. It's his company, regardless of
title-of-the-month. I suppose the damning thing about him is that he's
amoral.
--
It's is not, it isn't ain't, and it's it's, not its, if you mean it
is. If you don't, it's its. Then too, it's hers. It isn't her's. It
isn't our's either. It's ours, and likewise yours and theirs.
-- Oxford University Press, Edpress News
------------------------------
From: Mike Martinet <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Microsoft says Linux threatens innovation
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 07:10:56 -0700
Edward Rosten wrote:
>
> > It's interesting to note that the whole phenomenon of Microsoft vs. Open
> > Source most likely wouldn't exist had IBM not (albeit, unthinkingly)
> > 'open-sourced' the PC architecture.
>
> Not true. Visit www.gnu.org and look under `Why we are here'
>
> -Ed
>
HUP! I glanced at 'Why We Exist' on gnu.org - I couldn't find a
history, per se, and I didn't notice a mention of platform. Who, in
your opinion, if not MS, would be challenging Open Source if MS hadn't
risen to dominance on the IBM clone platform? And Open Source in what
form? Linux on x86 most certainly wouldn't be a threat, either. Would
it? What am I missing here?
My point is/was the irony that both MS and Linux owe their current
status to the historically cheap availability of IBM clones. Something
that was only possible because IBM inadvertently gave the hardware
licensing away.
I could be wrong. It's happened before, ask my wife. :)
MjM
------------------------------
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