Linux-Advocacy Digest #656, Volume #32 Mon, 5 Mar 01 14:13:05 EST
Contents:
Re: Largest Linux installation? (Henry_Barta)
Re: It's here! IBM's new Linux ad! (Bob Hauck)
Hmm, orginized Winvocates? GPL, etc. (mlw)
Re: GPL Like patents. (Roberto Alsina)
Re: Sometimes, when I run Windows... (Brent R)
Re: Sometimes, when I run Windows... (Bob Hauck)
Re: Another Linux "Oopsie"! ("Edward Rosten")
Re: Sometimes, when I run Windows... (Brent R)
Re: It's here! IBM's new Linux ad! ("Gary Hallock")
Re: It's here! IBM's new Linux ad! (Roberto Alsina)
Re: Linux Joke ("Jon Johanson")
Re: Linux Joke ("Jon Johanson")
Re: GPL Like patents. (mlw)
Re: GPL Like patents. (Craig Kelley)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Henry_Barta <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Largest Linux installation?
Date: 5 Mar 2001 17:56:31 GMT
Mohd-Hanafiah Abdullah <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Does anybody know of any large organization(s) that are using Linux
> extensively both for server function as well as for desktop beside the Linux
> vendors themselves. This would be a good reference for selling the idea of
> Linux to enterprise and government.
Fermi National Accelerator Lab, the largest computer facility
in Illinois (next to NCSA at University of Illinois) has hundreds
of boxes running Linux. (They've got some other neat hardware
too.)
But then... they are government.
--
Hank Barta White Oak Software Inc.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] Predictable Systems by Design.(tm)
Beautiful Sunny Winfield, Illinois
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Bob Hauck)
Subject: Re: It's here! IBM's new Linux ad!
Reply-To: hauck[at]codem{dot}com
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 17:57:04 GMT
On Mon, 05 Mar 2001 17:06:10 GMT, Brent R <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Exactly why is IE so bad? I find it much nicer to use than NS, hell even
>the Linux version of NS sucks (I love how it opens downloadable binaries
>as web pages).
I presume you mean RPM binaries? The trouble there is that the "rpm"
extension is also used by Real Audio.
--
-| Bob Hauck
-| Codem Systems, Inc.
-| http://www.codem.com/
------------------------------
From: mlw <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Hmm, orginized Winvocates? GPL, etc.
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 13:03:16 -0500
I am not a paranoid person by nature, but sometimes you just can't help but see
an organization or pattern.
It goes something like this:
Some MS press release claims something. Then within a couple days, a Winvocate
will come to this forum and start a thread that, in essence, says "Linux sucks
because [ms press release pseudo-fact] is better."
Then a long thread ensues. After a day or two, the thread dies, the vast
majority of times because the Winvocates can't prove their case.
I did read this, and thought the timing was particularly interesting.
http://digitalmass.boston.com/news/daily/03/030501/sector_report.html
--
The majority of the stupid is invincible and guaranteed for all time.
The terror of their tyranny, however, is alleviated by their lack of
consistency.
-- Albert Einstein
========================
http://www.mohawksoft.com
------------------------------
From: Roberto Alsina <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: GPL Like patents.
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 14:59:09 -0300
mlw wrote:
> Craig Kelley wrote:
>>
>> mlw <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>>
>> > Encourage development by protecting the results of investment.
>> > Make public inventions so that industry can prosper.
>>
>> How about providing for free code so that *anyone* can prosper? The
>> GPL doesn't allow that because it is predjudiced against certain
>> classes of developers (intentionally).
>
> Ahh, and how would you prosper? By taking code you didn't write and don't
> own, and charging money for it and NOT properly compensating the original
> authors.
This is so-typical GPL advocacy.
Q: If someone just took the BSDL code and relicensed it, why would anyone
prefer it over the original BSDL version?
A: They wouldn't. Before relicensing it, the code would have to be
IMPROVED. This step is never mentioned by GPL advocates.
This is where it gets interesting. Either you have
a ) commercial software that's technically better than free software, and
the proprietary version DESERVES being preferred, and people will PREFER
paying for it, and there is no harm done,
or
b) commercial software that is not better than free software, and people
will PREFER using the free version, and there is no harm done.
Your choice.
Of course if reality is a), the GPL simply prevents the creation of better
software for users. They get bad software in the name of freedom, even if
they WANT better software that is not free.
If reality is b) the GPL makes no difference.
So, the GPL is either a force slowing down the improvement of software, or
it is neutral. In either case, the only reason for the GPL's existence is
politics.
That is not necessarily bad, itsjust never said.
--
Roberto Alsina
------------------------------
From: Brent R <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Sometimes, when I run Windows...
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 18:02:51 GMT
Pete Goodwin wrote:
> Long live the GUI! [basically]
Pete, I really don't see how the GUI is automatically better than
command line.
When I'm booted into Linux I have a directory with all my music in it.
My distro came with a text-based music player, so if I want to play all
songs for a specific group I can type:
mpg123 -z L*
and play all the songs for that group (if it begins with 'L') and not
worry about it. It's 10 times quicker and less tedious than doing it
graphically. Another favorite of mine is:
mpg123 -z Sleep/* && halt
which will shut down my computer when it finishes playing all the music
I want to hear. I would have no idea how to do that in the GUI and
frankly I don't care. The command-line is much easier.
Remember, different tools for different jobs.
--
Happy Trails!
-Brent
http://rotten168.home.att.net
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Bob Hauck)
Subject: Re: Sometimes, when I run Windows...
Reply-To: hauck[at]codem{dot}com
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 18:08:20 GMT
On Mon, 05 Mar 2001 17:51:39 GMT, Brent R <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Not that a Unix shell will work to it's a full ability on a Windows
> system. Piping needs to write out a temp file before the next command
> is performed on the output and also file permissions on Windows BASH
> (for example) are pretty meaningless. But I would never use Windows on
> a multi-user environment anyway.
Pipes work right on NT/W2K, as do permissions. What doesn't work right
on NT is fork() and pty's and symlinks. The lack of those causes some
performance problems for Unix-style programs running under Cygwin
because they have to be emulated in userland.
I don't think anybody who is a Unix person at heart will be happy with
Windows 9x/ME in any case. They should at least demand NT <grin>.
>Because Windows has better apps.
For some interpretation of "better" I guess. What it really has is
apps that "everyone else is using".
--
-| Bob Hauck
-| Codem Systems, Inc.
-| http://www.codem.com/
------------------------------
From: "Edward Rosten" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Another Linux "Oopsie"!
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 18:08:02 +0000
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, "Gary Hallock"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, "Pete
> Goodwin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
>> I'm talking about drivers in general, not just printer drivers. What
>> happens if you allow one application to drive the graphics and another
>> to pick a different driver?
>>
>
> Gimp doesn'y really provide its own printer driver, just its own
> filters. There is only one driver for the parallel port that connects to
> the printer. Now if Gimp decided to somehow unload parport_pc and
> replace it with it's own, then you might have a point.
>
> Gary
No. Gimp definitely has printer drivers. Printer != parallel port.
-Ed
--
| Edward Rosten
| u98ejr@
This argument is a beta version. | ecs.ox
| .ac.uk
------------------------------
From: Brent R <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Sometimes, when I run Windows...
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 18:10:38 GMT
ono wrote:
>
> > OK, everyone knows this one. It's not a command shell. I'm speaking of
> > a full-featured command-line shell with filename completion, complete
> They actually have completion (files. Just type cmd /? and read. As a linux
> gui you
> should be able to read.
>
> As I'm sure that you have no access to w2k default shell. I'm doing a
> >help cmd > con for you:
>
> I'm truly surprised they added so many features in the last few years. Must
> be because all
> those ex unix guys are demanding stuff like that.
>
> ------------------------
>
> Starts a new instance of the Windows 2000 command interpreter
>
> CMD [/A | /U] [/Q] [/D] [/E:ON | /E:OFF] [/F:ON | /F:OFF] [/V:ON | /V:OFF]
> [[/S] [/C | /K] string]
>
> /C Carries out the command specified by string and then terminates
> /K Carries out the command specified by string but remains
> /S Modifies the treatment of string after /C or /K (see below)
> /Q Turns echo off
> /D Disable execution of AutoRun commands from registry (see below)
> /A Causes the output of internal commands to a pipe or file to be ANSI
> /U Causes the output of internal commands to a pipe or file to be
> Unicode
> /T:fg Sets the foreground/background colors (see COLOR /? for more info)
> /E:ON Enable command extensions (see below)
> /E:OFF Disable command extensions (see below)
> /F:ON Enable file and directory name completion characters (see below)
> /F:OFF Disable file and directory name completion characters (see below)
> /V:ON Enable delayed environment variable expansion using c as the
> delimiter. For example, /V:ON would allow !var! to expand the
> variable var at execution time. The var syntax expands variables
> at input time, which is quite a different thing when inside of a FOR
> loop.
> /V:OFF Disable delayed environment expansion.
>
> Note that multiple commands separated by the command separator '&&'
> are accepted for string if surrounded by quotes. Also, for compatibility
> reasons, /X is the same as /E:ON, /Y is the same as /E:OFF and /R is the
> same as /C. Any other switches are ignored.
>
> If /C or /K is specified, then the remainder of the command line after
> the switch is processed as a command line, where the following logic is
> used to process quote (") characters:
>
> 1. If all of the following conditions are met, then quote characters
> on the command line are preserved:
>
> - no /S switch
> - exactly two quote characters
> - no special characters between the two quote characters,
> where special is one of: &<>()@^|
> - there are one or more whitespace characters between the
> the two quote characters
> - the string between the two quote characters is the name
> of an executable file.
>
> 2. Otherwise, old behavior is to see if the first character is
> a quote character and if so, strip the leading character and
> remove the last quote character on the command line, preserving
> any text after the last quote character.
>
> If /D was NOT specified on the command line, then when CMD.EXE starts, it
> looks for the following REG_SZ/REG_EXPAND_SZ registry variables, and if
> either or both are present, they are executed first.
>
> HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\Software\Microsoft\Command Processor\AutoRun
>
> and/or
>
> HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\Microsoft\Command Processor\AutoRun
>
> Command Extensions are enabled by default. You may also disable
> extensions for a particular invocation by using the /E:OFF switch. You
> can enable or disable extensions for all invocations of CMD.EXE on a
> machine and/or user logon session by setting either or both of the
> following REG_DWORD values in the registry using REGEDT32.EXE:
>
> HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\Software\Microsoft\Command Processor\EnableExtensions
>
> and/or
>
> HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\Microsoft\Command Processor\EnableExtensions
>
> to either 0x1 or 0x0. The user specific setting takes precedence over
> the machine setting. The command line switches take precedence over the
> registry settings.
>
> The command extensions involve changes and/or additions to the following
> commands:
>
> DEL or ERASE
> COLOR
> CD or CHDIR
> MD or MKDIR
> PROMPT
> PUSHD
> POPD
> SET
> SETLOCAL
> ENDLOCAL
> IF
> FOR
> CALL
> SHIFT
> GOTO
> START (also includes changes to external command invocation)
> ASSOC
> FTYPE
>
> To get specific details, type commandname /? to view the specifics.
>
> Delayed environment variable expansion is NOT enabled by default. You
> can enable or disable delayed environment variable expansion for a
> particular invocation of CMD.EXE with the /V:ON or /V:OFF switch. You
> can enable or disable completion for all invocations of CMD.EXE on a
> machine and/or user logon session by setting either or both of the
> following REG_DWORD values in the registry using REGEDT32.EXE:
>
> HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\Software\Microsoft\Command Processor\DelayedExpansion
>
> and/or
>
> HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\Microsoft\Command Processor\DelayedExpansion
>
> to either 0x1 or 0x0. The user specific setting takes precedence over
> the machine setting. The command line switches take precedence over the
> registry settings.
>
> If delayed environment variable expansion is enabled, then the exclamation
> character can be used to substitute the value of an environment variable
> at execution time.
>
> File and Directory name completion is NOT enabled by default. You can
> enable or disable file name completion for a particular invocation of
> CMD.EXE with the /F:ON or /F:OFF switch. You can enable or disable
> completion for all invocations of CMD.EXE on a machine and/or user logon
> session by setting either or both of the following REG_DWORD values in
> the registry using REGEDT32.EXE:
>
> HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\Software\Microsoft\Command Processor\CompletionChar
> HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\Software\Microsoft\Command
> Processor\PathCompletionChar
>
> and/or
>
> HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\Microsoft\Command Processor\CompletionChar
> HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\Microsoft\Command
> Processor\PathCompletionChar
>
> with the hex value of a control character to use for a particular
> function (e.g. 0x4 is Ctrl-D and 0x6 is Ctrl-F). The user specific
> settings take precedence over the machine settings. The command line
> switches take precedence over the registry settings.
>
> If completion is enabled with the /F:ON switch, the two control
> characters used are Ctrl-D for directory name completion and Ctrl-F for
> file name completion. To disable a particular completion character in
> the registry, use the value for space (0x20) as it is not a valid
> control character.
>
> Completion is invoked when you type either of the two control
> characters. The completion function takes the path string to the left
> of the cursor appends a wild card character to it if none is already
> present and builds up a list of paths that match. It then displays the
> first matching path. If no paths match, it just beeps and leaves the
> display alone. Thereafter, repeated pressing of the same control
> character will cycle through the list of matching paths. Pressing the
> Shift key with the control character will move through the list
> backwards. If you edit the line in any way and press the control
> character again, the saved list of matching paths is discarded and a new
> one generated. The same occurs if you switch between file and directory
> name completion. The only difference between the two control characters
> is the file completion character matches both file and directory names,
> while the directory completion character only matches directory names.
> If file completion is used on any of the built in directory commands
> (CD, MD or RD) then directory completion is assumed.
>
> The completion code deals correctly with file names that contain spaces
> or other special characters by placing quotes around the matching path.
> Also, if you back up, then invoke completion from within a line, the
> text to the right of the cursor at the point completion was invoked is
> discarded.
This looks like another example of MS taking something very simple and
making it unnecessarily complicated.
--
Happy Trails!
-Brent
http://rotten168.home.att.net
------------------------------
From: "Gary Hallock" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: It's here! IBM's new Linux ad!
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 13:10:29 +0500
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, "Bob Hauck"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Mon, 05 Mar 2001 17:06:10 GMT, Brent R <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>>Exactly why is IE so bad? I find it much nicer to use than NS, hell even
>>the Linux version of NS sucks (I love how it opens downloadable binaries
>>as web pages).
>
> I presume you mean RPM binaries? The trouble there is that the "rpm"
> extension is also used by Real Audio.
>
And easily bypassed by pressing shift when left clicking on the file.
Gary
------------------------------
From: Roberto Alsina <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: It's here! IBM's new Linux ad!
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 15:18:36 -0300
Gary Hallock wrote:
> In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, "Bob Hauck"
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 05 Mar 2001 17:06:10 GMT, Brent R <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>>>Exactly why is IE so bad? I find it much nicer to use than NS, hell even
>>>the Linux version of NS sucks (I love how it opens downloadable binaries
>>>as web pages).
>>
>> I presume you mean RPM binaries? The trouble there is that the "rpm"
>> extension is also used by Real Audio.
>>
>
> And easily bypassed by pressing shift when left clicking on the file.
Not to mention that it's a tupid error on the server side, often caused by
using windows.
On windows, the servers usually decide the type of the content using the
extension. So anything called *.rpm will get labeled as
"application/x-pn-realaudio" or some such.
On Unixy web servers, it doesn't have to be that way.
--
Roberto Alsina
------------------------------
From: "Jon Johanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Linux Joke
Date: 5 Mar 2001 12:20:08 -0600
"." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:97sekk$8ms$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> In comp.os.linux.advocacy Keldon Warlord 2000
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > "Chris Ahlstrom" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> > news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> >> Q. Why does the Linux user constantly obtain
> >> upgrades of the kernel and other OS facilities?
> >>
> >> A. Because he can.
>
> > wrong answer.
>
> > the real answer is: because he has to.
>
> Really now? Why exactly does he HAVE to?
>
> I am in control of two webservers and a mail server which are all running
> redhat linux, and havent had any kind of upgrade in 290 days.
>
> Never hacked, never down, never fail.
You left off, respectively:
Not worth hacking, never worked hard, no one would notice.
------------------------------
From: "Jon Johanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Linux Joke
Date: 5 Mar 2001 12:21:09 -0600
"Chris Ahlstrom" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> Keldon Warlord 2000 wrote:
> >
> > "Chris Ahlstrom" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> > news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > > Q. Why does the Linux user constantly obtain
> > > upgrades of the kernel and other OS facilities?
> > >
> > > A. Because he can.
> >
> > wrong answer.
> >
> > the real answer is: because he has to.
>
> Allright! I was waiting for some dumb lamer to come
> up with that retort, so I could spring this one:
>
> No, that's the answer to the question "Why does the Windows
> NT/2000 user always obtain the next Service Pack".
>
Actually, we have quite a few server not running sp1 - they didn't need it.
> yeeee haaaa!
>
> By the way, note that Service Pack is essentially
> a butt-fucking by Bill Gates.
Kinda like how 2.4 is butt-fucking by hippies?
------------------------------
From: mlw <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: GPL Like patents.
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 13:25:17 -0500
Roberto Alsina wrote:
>
> mlw wrote:
>
> > Erik Funkenbusch wrote:
> >>
> >> "mlw" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> >> news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> >> > > But you do care if you release GPL'd code. You are insisting that
> >> > > any code that is used in combination with yours in a way that might
> >> > > be considered a derived work (and the FSF considers linking a library
> >> > > to make all the linked code a derived work) must also be licensed
> >> > > according to your choice, not the author(s) of the other compnents.
> >> >
> >> > Yes I do. If the people who wish to create a "derived work" and want to
> >> use my
> >> > code in a way I do not wish them too, then use someone else's code.
> >> Absolutely,
> >> > you have the freedom not to use it.
> >>
> >> So, if I write 10 million lines of code, and use 1 function from your
> >> code, you have the right to dictate what I do with 9,999,900 other lines
> >> of code that never even touch your code or could be considered a derived
> >> work of your code?
> >
> > Yup. Don't like it? Don't use my code, but you are exaggerating the
> > impact. There are very reasonable ways of using GPL software.
> >
> > If you want to modify a library, modify the library and release your
> > modifications. You can still use the library without releasing all your 10
> > million lines of code.
>
> Actually, that's what RMS says.
> He says, if the library is GPLd, that you must, if you ever distribute
> those 10 million LOCs, distribute them under the GPL.
>
> Further, he has told me, that if a non-identical clone of that library
> exists under another license, and even if you did all development using the
> clone, as long as your 10 MLOC try to use any functionality that is not in
> the clone, (say, calling a database as shared when the clone doesn't
> support sharing), your 10MLOC should be distributed under the GPL.
>
> Further, he has told me that if an identycal clone exists of that library,
> which is licensed under a really free license, but that clone uses the
> original GPL'd library to provide the functionality (check the BSD readline
> hack) through what is usually considered a non-contaminating interface
> (pipes), the 10MLOC should be under the GPL.
>
> Scared already?
What RMS says and what the law demands can be different. Why don't we just look
at section 2 of the GPL shall we, it clearly refutes much of the garbage people
say about GPL:
http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/gpl.html
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
2. You may modify your copy or copies of the Program or any portion of it, thus
forming a work based on the Program, and copy and distribute such modifications
or work under the terms of Section 1 above, provided that you also meet all of
these conditions:
a) You must cause the modified files to carry prominent notices stating
that you changed the files and the date of any change.
b) You must cause any work that you distribute or publish, that in whole or
in part contains or is derived from the Program or any part thereof, to be
licensed as a whole at no charge to all third parties under the terms of this
License.
c) If the modified program normally reads commands interactively when run,
you must cause it, when started running for such interactive use in the most
ordinary way, to print or display an announcement including an appropriate
copyright notice and a notice that there is no warranty (or else, saying that
you provide a warranty) and that users may redistribute the program under these
conditions, and telling the user how to view a copy of this License.
(Exception: if the Program itself is interactive but does not normally print
such an announcement, your work based on the Program is not required to print
an announcement.)
These requirements apply to the modified work as a whole. If identifiable
sections of that work are not derived from the Program, and can be reasonably
considered independent and separate works in themselves, then this License, and
its terms, do not apply to those sections when you distribute them as separate
works. But when you distribute the same sections as part of a whole which is a
work based on the Program, the distribution of the whole must be on the terms
of this License, whose permissions for other licensees extend to the entire
whole, and thus to each and every part regardless of who wrote it.
Thus, it is not the intent of this section to claim rights or contest your
rights to work written entirely by you; rather, the intent is to exercise the
right to control the distribution of derivative or collective works based on
the Program.
In addition, mere aggregation of another work not based on the Program with the
Program (or with a work based on the Program) on a volume of a storage or
distribution medium does not bring the other work under the scope of this
License.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
This section makes it VERY clear that the doom and gloom people are claiming
GPL will do is utter non-sense.
--
The majority of the stupid is invincible and guaranteed for all time.
The terror of their tyranny, however, is alleviated by their lack of
consistency.
-- Albert Einstein
========================
http://www.mohawksoft.com
------------------------------
From: Craig Kelley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: GPL Like patents.
Date: 05 Mar 2001 11:25:29 -0700
mlw <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> Craig Kelley wrote:
> >
> > mlw <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> >
> > > Encourage development by protecting the results of investment.
> > > Make public inventions so that industry can prosper.
> >
> > How about providing for free code so that *anyone* can prosper? The
> > GPL doesn't allow that because it is predjudiced against certain
> > classes of developers (intentionally).
>
> Ahh, and how would you prosper? By taking code you didn't write and
> don't own, and charging money for it and NOT properly compensating
> the original authors.
The other choice is that they don't use my code at all. I think a
lose-lose situation is worse, especially since I write free software
so that it can be free.
> GPL prevents this, and rightfully so. If you want to use GPL code in
> this way, you are welcome to contact the copyright holders and
> negotiate a deal where you are allowed to use their code without the
> GPL status.
>
> If the code is not released, you would not have it, so just deal.
>
> [ BSD drivel snipped]
Drivel?
Wouldn't you rather have the back-ports that Apple has done with
Darwin than not?
Why did you snip the Windows NT/BSD case study? Can't you respond to
it?
> > Once a GPL project gets large enough it becomes impossible to pay the
> > developers and/or get their consent because you can't find them and/or
> > they are unwilling. The GPL is pretty much only used to enfoce the
> > community payback of free code. This has the effect of DRIVING AWAY a
> > certain class of developer, which has the opposite effect that you are
> > claiming above. There are fewer people sharing code.
>
> And here is the genius of GPL. If a project is so large the the
> original developers could not be found and compensated, too bad. The
> big GPL projects are so big that we are talking about man-decades
> worth of work. Why should you be able to take that, it is not yours.
>
> That is the biggest and most important statement in this whole
> debate. What right do you have to complain that you can't take what
> isn't yours.
I'm not complaining. You are.
I wish people would write free software; if they need the security
blanket known as the GPL then that's fine. Hopefully they'll see the
light some day. The GPL inherits all the drawbacks of commercial
software along with some benefits of free software. The BSD/Artistic
license gets the benefits of both.
[snip about "stealing" my code]
> > Personally, I would take it as a compliment.
>
> Complements do not improve the GPL nor compensate developers.
Fine, at least it's being used. I'll probably get a bugfix or two
from them anyway.
> > I like the GPL and can understand why some would use it, but I will
> > never release my own original works under it. I'll send patches to
> > GPL projects because I respect the original author's intent. It's not
> > they holy war that some make it out to be.
> >
> > I view many cases of commercial software as much worse than the GPL
> > (like the SMB code in Windows, for instance). I'd rather have an open
> > reference that I could use than their closed market-share-ware.
>
> I agree.
--
The wheel is turning but the hamster is dead.
Craig Kelley -- [EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.isu.edu/~kellcrai finger [EMAIL PROTECTED] for PGP block
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