On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 00:33:20 +0200 (IST) guy keren <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > On Tue, 25 Jan 2005, Micha Feigin wrote: > > > When I started at least it was taught as the second language after > > scheme. From doing later projects with people I can tell you it > > caused a lot of misunderstandings and bad coding habits, especially > > the pointer stuff. Learning c first also makes people use c++ as a > > functional language instead of as an OO language. > > that's because the teachers are doing a lousy job (whether they are > too clueless, or don't care, or think that their job is writing the > test and letting the students learn from books - i don't know). > > > A first language should be an OO one with clean syntax and no > > pointers. It doesn't need to be a powerful, but it has to be clear > > and simple so that people understand the concepts before they start > > using the heavy and obscure tools that allow them to break the > > concepts. Some of the problem is that lecturers tend to teach the > > language more then the concept (there area few good ones, but then > > the course is considered difficult and people try to avoid it ;-) > > i'll repeat again - picking on the language is less important then > picking on the teachers. even if you choose "the right language" (for > whatever"right" value you use) you'll solve nothing, since the > teachers are not teaching it properly. > > > I'm referring to c here. As a first language its taught with great > > emphasis on functional programing (as opposed to OO). Although it > > is, good functional programing should take in mind OO ideas which > > make the code much more maintainable. > > you're mixing teaching and practicing. when you write code in C, > indeed, use what you know from OO. but don't teach everything at once > - or else people won't know when to use what, and will have a very > shallow control of too many concepts. i'd rather they have very good > control or fewer concepts. > > > I see a lot of code written by people who started out with c and > > there is a tendency to use too many global variables, not defining > > functions as static when they are used locally and shouldn't be > > globally visible, etc. Using callbacks is a very neglected subject, > > and yes, pointers can make things very confusing at first, although > > they can also be a very powerful tool if you use them correctly. > > it's the teachers. and the teachers again. > > ofcourse, there are some people who don't have the qualities needed to > learn - but i think they are only responsible for part of the > 'failures'. the rest are the teachers - fix the teachers. use teachers > that _want_ to teach, that _know how to_ teach, and that have a talent > for teaching. > Ahh, now you come to the big difference between uni and coledges (mihlalot). In coledge they pay teachers to teach, in uni they make proffesors teach as a requirement. There are two problems. Teachers that are too smart to understand what the students have trouble understanding and teachers who could care less for teaching since they have better things to do. But we are getting REALLY REALLY off toppic here and it seems like we mostly agree anyway we are just trying to make each other see that ;-) > > C++ is a bad language for beginners also since among other things > > its not strict enough on OO (as it stays compliant with c) and > > really need to know what it does behind the scenes if you don't want > > to have a very inefficient code in the end(for example STL is not > > the best choice for programs that are supposed to be real time and > > highly optimized). Besides, STL syntax can make things VERY > > complicated at first. > > STL is "good enough" for many things. students don't learn real time > in uni (or more correct - hardly any of them do). you're again mixing > teaching with practicing at work. > > -- > guy > > "For world domination - press 1, > or dial 0, and please hold, for the creator." -- nob o. dy > > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > This Mail Was Scanned By Mail-seCure System > at the Tel-Aviv University CC. > ================================================================= To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
