Linux-Misc Digest #790, Volume #21 Mon, 13 Sep 99 11:13:10 EDT
Contents:
Re: Netscape 4.6 + JAVA -> freezes (Troy Carter)
Re: Amiga, QNX, Linux and Revolution (John Birch)
Re: SuSE 6.2 US - man tar in German? (Shaw Carruthers)
Re: swap space ever get utilize? (NGUYEN-DAI Quy)
Re: Swapping harddrives, this is confusing, I need help (DeAnn Iwan)
How can I disable su? (John Doe)
Re: Chat and simple dialing of modem (Chuck)
Re: Sound in 2.0.35 but none in 2.2.x ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Cross-Platform news site (Jik)
Re: Need national ISP (ORRIN)
Re: Modem Sharing (Ken Williams)
Re: Textbook for Course on Linux (Leonard Evens)
Re: Shell Script (Leonard Evens)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Troy Carter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.networking,netscape.public.mozilla.java
Subject: Re: Netscape 4.6 + JAVA -> freezes
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 08:52:03 -0400
John Soltow wrote:
>
> Troy Carter wrote:
>
> > In addition to the font fix, also make sure you have the following env
> > variable set (in your bashrc, for instance):
> >
> > MOZILLA_HOME=/usr/local/netscape export MOZILLA_HOME
> >
> > (replace /usr/local/netscape with your path to your netscape
> > installation)
> >
>
> Hmmm, I don't have that set and it's working. What does this variable do? Just
> wondering what other problems I'm having that I haven't noticed yet.
>
> John
I think this just sets the working directory for java. Might only be a
problem for people with multiple installations of netscape (like me...).
-Troy
--
========================================================
Troy Carter
228A Marshall Av. (609) 430-9158 (H)
Princeton, NJ 08540 (609) 243-2941 (O) (PPPL)
[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.princeton.edu/~tcarter
========================================================
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (John Birch)
Crossposted-To: comp.os.qnx,comp.sys.amiga.misc
Subject: Re: Amiga, QNX, Linux and Revolution
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 13:21:27 GMT
Reply-To: johnb<nospam>@invision.co.uk
On 09 Sep 1999 somebody wrote:
>>We are requiring people to interact with these machines, but we are not teaching them
>>the basic concepts necessary to interact with them effectively. A hundred, maybe two
>>hundred years ago most people learned little or no mathematics. They didn't need to.
>>Now, it would be difficult to survive without at least enough math to manage a bank
>>account, decide whether a purchase was practical, etc.
>>You're talking about changing what it means to be computer-literate. I'm talking
>about
>>teaching basic, inevitable concepts of computer use.
What you're talking about is teaching people how to use current
machines, what's being advocated is making machines that are more
intuitive.
>>Maybe, as you say, hierarchical file structures should be abandoned in the interface
>in
>>favor of something 'less technical'. Less of an outgrowth of the computer's internal
>>structure.
>>And, OK, maybe so. But first: what I'm saying is, right now, this is how computers
>work
>>and -until- that changes, I think people who are going to depend on these machines
>>should be taught core concepts for their own sake, just as they are taught core
>concepts
>>of math and driving.
>I sure agree with this. I am coming from the direction of how we, as
>engineers and software developers should design our end. Of course users
>should learn "computer literacy". Model T owners should learn spark
>advance. No disagreement here.
Indeed, a change in computer _design_ from the users viewpoint is long
overdue!
>>Second, is it really realistic to say that hierarchical directory structure is a bad
>idea, or
>>an idea to be 'gotten beyond'? Computers process large amounts of data very quickly.
>>File cabinets can be replaced by desktop computers. Storage warehouses can be
>>replaced by LAN servers. A general computer operator is either going to be handling
>>large amounts of data, or is not going to be getting as much usefulness out of the
>>computer as she can. So I think a hierarchical structure, or something analogous,
>>is just a good logical choice for keeping 'papers' sorted. Is it really such a
>difficult concept?
>>People learned to use filing cabinets and desks for a hundred years with no problem.
>>The concepts aren't really all that different, so long as you work at it from 'the
>ground up'.
They only organised data this way because it is the only way to
_physically_ organise data.
But it **is** a very bad model to apply to a computer. The biggest
disadvantage with any 'filing' system be it manual or computer is
indexation. The use of a hierarchical structure is completely counter
to the advantages that computerisation brings (that of speed). Using a
hierarchical structure results in a single 'mechanism' for searching.
The only reason for imposing a structure on stored dat ais so that it
can be found easily. However, computers are very good at finding
things. It is perfectly feasible to have a flat system in which all
files are at the same level and interact with it through a more
advanced OS that is able to search those files for the relevant data.
Such an OS might store indexes to speed subsequent searches (and
maintain them as data is added) but those indexes would for most users
be hidden rather than as currently the only effective means of access.
>>Cooper provides a wonderful example. 'Jane' loses all her files because someone
>>changes her default directory in Word.
>>What I'm saying is, if Jane had been taught a basic core concept like directory
>structure
>>she wouldn't have batted an eye.
>Again, the concept that jane should learn the details of her present
>dancing-bearware is something we both agree on. The question of
>designing operating systems (and thus deciding which set of details
>she has to learn) is another question. Linux, QNX, and Amiga make
>different decisions in these areas. Can a new Amiga do better?
What I'm saying is that if Jane was using a better OS (not one
currently available), she would find her data by supplying a number of
keywords. For instance when she opened her Word processor she might
select <last document> for the instance you cite. If she wanted the
last document that mentioned interest rates she might add <interest
rates>. if she wanted to open (at least partially) all documents
concerning interest rates than she would say <all><interest rates> or
something similar.
>>And from the interface design level, what could be done differently, so that Jane
>>wouldn't 'have to worry about' structure? MS provide two good solutions. She might
>>have clicked the 'File' menu, and checked her last four files from within Word. She
>>might have clicked 'Start'->'Documents' from the patented Windows Upside-Down Menu
>>(tm) and found her last doc that way.
But both these solutions are ad hoc addons to solve common problems
with hierarchical filing.
>>But I think the problem with these two solutions is immediately obvious. They -add-
>to
>>the amount of knowledge necessary for Jane to handle her computer.
Indeed, further they suggest a degree of smarts about the system that
is painfully lacking. In my experience, the most confusing aspect of
computers for **complete** novices is tht they are'nt at all smart.
People with no experience expect a computer to just 'do things' in the
same way they expect cars to just 'go'. But ubfortunately computers
currently require the user to adapt to the machine, and to perform
operations that actually the machine is _more_ capable of doing _like
remembering what they namied specific documents, or constructing some
indexation strategy.
>Maybe so, but these interfaces also have things they do poorly (like finding
>last year's christmas card list).
Exactly
>Other methods that come to mind are having
>a search engine interface
Only if it is intrinsic to the OS
>or making HTML style hyperlinks really easy for
>Jane to create, so that she makes a link rather than saving a file, and clicks
>the link rather than retrieving the file.
Yes, but this is straying back into the hierarchical structure kind of
mode. You are requiring the user to establish a paradigm of filing for
themselves.. this is unnecessary.... for example if I draw an image
using a painting program.. the computer is already able to index that
data as an image (rather than text, numerical or composite data), it
also knows the creation date of the image and who created it. When I
ask to save it I should be asked for some keywords to recall it by
(from a list of keywords I have already used plus the ability to add
more).
>Yes! I couldn't agree more. Lots of things (scientific method, math,
>critical thinking) should be taught to as many as possible. Then we
>engineers should design systems so that, wherever possible, such knowledge
>is not needed. The person who stores the list of parts that go into
>assembling an airplane will need to know hierarchical structures.
But to take just this simple example there are many ways that the
hierarchy could be developed. For the stores guys, a hierachy based
upon part types might be desirable eg:
root
nuts & bolts
electronic components
bulbs
connectors
ics
panels
instruments
piping
ductwork
assemblies
etc etc
but for maintenance
root
Boeing747
engines
wings
body
tailplane
Boeing707
engines
wings
body
tailplane
Boeing737
engines
wings
body
tailplane
Airbus230
engines
wings
body
tailplane
Same data, different hierarchy...
>>Third: If we get away from interfaces which are based on a 'best representation' of
>the
>>system's internal structure, then I think we end up with a lack of uniformity across
>>applications, which is even worse for the user.
But your thinking carts before horses. The access to data should suit
the users requirements, why should it be uniform? What about cultural
and social differences between users.
>Here is where I disagree strongly. You have identified a real need,
>but in my opinion associated the wrong solution with it. The right
>solution is human interface standards.
>Lack of uniformity is a problem, but it's not caused by hiding the
>system's internal structure. Look at HTML; Hyperlinks are not
>representitive of the underlying structure that is in the computer,
>and many webpgaes are designed my clueless newbies. Has this led
>to a problem of lack of uniformity across web pages? No. I can
>figure out what most webpages do witout thinking about the
>underlying structure.
Exactly.
>The fact that data is stored is indeed universal. How is implementation
>dependent. Imagine a world where NOVRAM (Non-Volatile RAM) had turned
>out to be much cheaper than rotating mechanical storage devices. In this
>world, RAM would not be erased when the computer is turned off. We wouldn't
>buy a 12GB hard disk when we filled or 1GB disk; wewould instead expand
>our 1GB of RAM with another 11GB. "Storage" and "Memory" would not be
>different concepts with different rules (files/directories vs. adresses,
>volatile vs. non-volatile, fast vs, slow). "store files, retrieve files"
>in not universal, but "store information, retrieve information" is. We
>usually store documents by name, and we usually store them as one file
>per document instead of one file per page, paragraph, or creation date.
>Except when we don't. MS Outlook stores email (ASCII text files with
>well defined headers) all in one huge file, and presents them as a list
>that can be sorted by date recieved, sender, etc.
How about this scenario. Storage is sooo cheap that we _never_ dlete
anything. A computer that when it gets full, off lines data to some
less accessible data store. How about dumping unused data files to
some Internet archive. When you request it, if it's not local, your PC
dials up and retrieves the data from the net. You local storage simply
contains recently used personal data and recently used 'global' data.
Taken a step further, your local 'global' data is kept updated
automatically by your PC when it connects to the net.
>It *is* important to understand what causes the gas tank to empty
>(don't be such a leadfoot) or the disk to fill (stop downloading
>so many JPEGs). Speed and reliability of the storage are important
>to know as well, (refilling a gas tank is quick. Refilling the
>battery on an electric car isn't) *unless* we engineers can make it
>so that you don't need to know.
Yes, a storage guage on your PC, show when you need to either
a) upgrade capacity
b) change the parameters for what you hold locally
c) connect to the net and offline some things
>My hope is that I can influence those who are working on the New
>Amiga to do things better than the way we do things now.
>With Linux, it's a slam dunk: "The inmates are running the asylum"
>is hugely popular, so it's just a matter of time before we see
>Linux human interfaces that reflect what's in the book. This is
>only possible because Linux allows me to choose human interfaces
>instead of forcing one on me and then forcing another changed
>one on me next year, like Microsoft does.
Microsoft only react to what the users demand. Unfortunately the
majority of users are 'lean back' users, uninformed, uninterested or
unimaginative in what _could_ be possible sp what they are given is
what MS believe they can sell them.
regards John B.
------------------------------
From: Shaw Carruthers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: SuSE 6.2 US - man tar in German?
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 13:57:21 +0100
David Orriss Jr <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>I've just gotten SuSE Linux 6.2 running on my new
>PIII-450. When I went to type:
>
>man tar
>
>to find out some information on the tar command I
>had the man page come back in German. Now I
>*know* I installed with English language support
>and the other pages I've tried are in English, so
>I'm assuming it's a goof in the SuSE install.
>
>Any thoughts?
You could use 'info tar'.
------------------------------
From: NGUYEN-DAI Quy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: swap space ever get utilize?
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 15:41:14 +0200
Son Trung Nguyen wrote:
>
> I wonder why my swap space never get used? I mean every time I
> look it's always 0K used. I know I have lots of free RAM but
> isn't the kernel supposed to use swap anyway for code pages
> that aren't actively used? Anyone have an explanation?
>
> Mem: 63340K av, 38044K used, 25296K free, 16700K shrd, 17044K buff
> Swap: 66556K av, 0K used, 66556K free 10728K cached
Try run KDE+StarOffice+Netscape at the same time and you'll see ... :-)
--
NGUYEN-DAI Quy (http://bobo.ltas.ulg.ac.be/vietlug)
"If the box says Windows 95 or better, it should run under Linux, right?"
------------------------------
From: DeAnn Iwan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Swapping harddrives, this is confusing, I need help
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 09:59:20 -0400
The DOS command that will copy whole directory trees is the copy
command with the /s switch. For example, "xcopy /s c:*.* d:*.*".
However, this does not copy system files. To put the system on a second
disk, you'd need to format it with the /s option or use (I think) "sys"
to put the system on. I do not know if this approach works smoothly
with Win95. If you can find a copy of "Microsoft Windows 95 Resource
Kit", it might have the information you need to clone a drive to a
nonidentical drive.
I would recommend (re)installing Win95 on the new drive, then
copying over the nonsystem files you want. Note, you may need to
reinstall some programs rather than just copy them over because some
programs use win95's registry and will get confused if their install
data isn't available there. Another benefit to reinstalling the OS is
that you get rid of all the old crap in the registry that didn't get
properly removed when you uninstalled stuff over time. Note, win95
expects to be the first active partition (the C: drive) and will not
work if it detects that it is not.
You may also want to reinstall linux on the new drive since you
will probably want to set up a somewhat different set of partitions than
you had on the smaller drive. That is, if you install it, you'll
"automatically" get the mount points to match up with the new
partitions. But you can do this by hand, if you want. In any case,
copying over data files should be straight forwards (for both OSs).
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> Here's my very basic setup:
> 8 Gig drive-Totally 95
> 1.2 Gig drive-Linux
> 2 Gig drive-Blank 95 partition
>
> Here's what I need to do:
> 1. Copy 95 drive to the 95 partition (all the files should fit in the
> two Gigs.
> 2. Reformat and repartition 8 Gig drive.
> 3. Copy linux to the new 8 Gig drive.
>
> Here's what I need to know:
> 1. Dos command to copy entire directory sturcture. I've tried the
> normal copy c:\*.* d:\ and it only copies files, not directories
> 2. The linux command to do basically the same thing
> 3. Linux command to make a LILO boot disk.
>
> Basically, I am degrading windows to the 2 Gig drive and giving myself
> more space for linux. I'll prolly be using the 1.2 Gig drive for either
> another linux dist or FreeBSD. I will be doing a lot of drive switching
> during this process so I think I know how to deal with LILO. I just
> need someone to help me with those commands, stupid questions, I know.
> TIA.
>
> Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (John Doe)
Subject: How can I disable su?
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: 13 Sep 1999 08:58:41 -0500
Dear Gurus
How can I allow only certain users to have access to su?
I have seen this works on an acount I have access to and
I would like to do it on linux box.
Thanks in adavnce
please cc to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 06:37:36 -0700
From: Chuck <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Chat and simple dialing of modem
Bill Unruh wrote:
>
> In <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Chuck <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>
> >I am trying to use the 'chat' command to simply dial a phone number and
> >the man chat does not describe it very well. Can anyone help me dicern
> >how I tell it where my modem is....send the ATDT string and the the
> >number.
>
> chat reads stdin and writes to stdout. That's it.
> chat '' AT OK ATDT5553987 </dev/ttyS1 >/dev/ttyS1
> (assuming your modem is on ttyS1)
Hi:
Thanks for the help...although I had to amend your line a bit to read:
chat '' at OK atdt5553987 </dev/modem >/dev/modem to get it to work
even
though my modem is on ttyS1.
Chuck
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Sound in 2.0.35 but none in 2.2.x
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 13:31:23 GMT
If your module won't load then maybe you haven't compiled in the proper
ISAPNP options in the kernel...
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Jik)
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.powerpc,comp.os.mac,comp.os.linux.hardware
Subject: Cross-Platform news site
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 02:15:10 GMT
Check out The Moose News at http://www.netway.com/~lorijohn/MooseNews
for hardware, software, and gaming information with a cross-platform
slant.
- Jik
The Moose News
http://www.netway.com/~lorijohn/MooseNews
------------------------------
From: ORRIN <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Need national ISP
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 09:40:42 -0400
On Sun, 12 Sep 1999 19:30:19 -0400, Alex Kaufman
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>IBM, AOL, probably Sprint also.
>
>
>Ken Williams wrote:
>>
>> I need an ISP that simply has one phone number for me to call toll free no
>> matter where I am in Canada and perferable the US. I don't need unlimited
>> access, I just want to dial a phone number that doesn't change, log on and
>> check my mail wether I'm in Montreal or Florida.
Many services offer 800 access for an extra fee. Whats wrong with
changing to a local phone number when you travel? I use NTR as a
travel/backup ISP since they have a 5 hour/month plan that is not
expensive and works with whatever software I already have. You can
check them out at www.ntr.net.
=============================
Orrin - Long Island, New York
Orrin's Caribbean Index - http://www.orrin.org/carib/
Syosset Camera Club - http://www.orrin.org/syocc/
HS Class Reunion - http://www.orrin.org/wphs/
Our e-mail address is at http://www.orrin.org/email.html
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Ken Williams)
Subject: Re: Modem Sharing
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 13:08:44 GMT
In article <7rinjr$99r$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, "Zorlu Yusuf" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>Hi there,
>
>how can i share my Modem/Isdn-card, which is installed on SuSE Linux Server
>6.2 to WindowsNT Workstations (Workstation and Server side)
>
>Thanks & Bye
>
http://www.wp.cc.nc.us/helpdesk/howto/mini/Windows-Modem-Sharing.html
------------------------------
From: Leonard Evens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Textbook for Course on Linux
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 08:30:33 -0500
Pete Holsberg wrote:
>
> Which of the mnay Linux books on the market would be most
> suitable as the textbook for an intro course on Linux? For
> a sysadm course?
>
> Thanks,
> Pete
I bought a book by Michael Kofler which I like quite a lot.
It is just called Linux. My version is a bit out of date,
but I understand there is a new edition.
--
Leonard Evens [EMAIL PROTECTED] 847-491-5537
Dept. of Mathematics, Northwestern Univ., Evanston, IL 60208
------------------------------
From: Leonard Evens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: poster
Subject: Re: Shell Script
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 07:45:13 -0500
Jeff Grossman wrote:
>
> Hello,
>
> I am working on a shell script that will ftp a file, and then tarball the
> file that was downloaded. That is the easy part. But, I want to rename the
> file with the current date. In the form of "990911.tar.gz". How would I go
> about doing this? Is it possible in a bash shell script?
>
> Thanks,
> Jeff
>
> --
> Jeff Grossman ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
I use the following to append the date to a tar file. Modify
it as appropriate for your needs. Study the man page for date
and experiment to obtain the date format you want.
DAY=`date +%j-%H-%M` #day of the year-hour-min
FILE=/zipdos/incr_"$DAY".tgz
Then the tar command uses the file option f $FILE
--
Leonard Evens [EMAIL PROTECTED] 847-491-5537
Dept. of Mathematics, Northwestern Univ., Evanston, IL 60208
------------------------------
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End of Linux-Misc Digest
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