Linux-Misc Digest #570, Volume #25 Sat, 26 Aug 00 14:13:02 EDT
Contents:
Re: Linux, XML, and assalting Windows (Craig Kelley)
Re: Linux, XML, and assalting Windows
Re: Linux, XML, and assalting Windows ("paul snow")
Re: Epson Color 600 Question (Edwin Johnson)
Re: imwheel stopped working (Dances With Crows)
Re: Linux, XML, and assalting Windows ("paul snow")
Re: Lotus Mail (Marcus Webb)
Re: Borland C++ for Linux (Garry Knight)
Re: How to edit menus? (Garry Knight)
Re: How do you pronounce GNOME? (Garry Knight)
Re: XWindow Managers (Garry Knight)
Re: Linux, XML, and assalting Windows (The Ghost In The Machine)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Crossposted-To: alt.os.linux,comp.text.xml,comp.os.linux.setup,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Linux, XML, and assalting Windows
From: Craig Kelley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: 26 Aug 2000 10:36:22 -0600
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> BRILLIANTLY writes:
> If all you want is information and control over your system when installing
> new software and have the power to override bad installation ideas in
> relations to your hosts needs; then WELCOME TO THE ALMOST FORGOTTEN PAST OF
> COMPUTING! That is just the way things were before Microsoft along with a
> few other companies together desided that we neither needed to know or even
> could handle these issues.
>
> To fix thing we don't need a redesigned package manager as you now seem to
> be championing. All we need is for the software to be delivered in a format
> that we can control its installation. At one time all we had to do was copy
> the programs and their supporting files onto our systems, we were in control
> of that process, we knew what was being done and could select to locations
> of the programs. Then they started to be shipped in standard compressed
> archives. We could still examine the contents of the archives and control
> and override the installation process as we saw fit.
>
> Over time the process has become more and more automated with less and less
> control on the part of the humans responsible for the installation. What we
> need is to reject Redmond's way of doing thing and a return to the past.
> When you depend on a standard installation program/package manager you are
> surrendering control. You are right if you believe we need to eliminate
> installation programs for most cases, but you don't do that by just
> introducing another package manager. You do that by returning to the way
> things were done right before the installation programs and package managers
> came along.
Amen brother!
NeXT-style bundles are one of the few ways in which we can appease
both the UNIX tradionalist *and* go back to the days of using REAL
FILESYSTEM TOOLS (like cp and a mouse pointer) to install software.
Package managers may be very sophisticated, but they are always going
to be a nusance, be it InstallShield, RPM or dpkg. We've already seen
horrible naming conflicts (SuSE vs. RedHat), unbelievable circular
dependencies (GNOME) and near-impossible-to-solve chicken-egg problems
(RPM 3.0.4 -> RPM 4.0+db3).
With bundles, you can pop in a CD and drag it to wherever you want to
put it, and it will all work. I hope Apple hasn't screwed them up in
MacOS X, but we'll see.
--
The wheel is turning but the hamster is dead.
Craig Kelley -- [EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.isu.edu/~kellcrai finger [EMAIL PROTECTED] for PGP block
------------------------------
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: alt.os.linux,comp.text.xml,comp.os.linux.setup,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Linux, XML, and assalting Windows
Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2000 10:02:05 -0700
Reply-To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Craig Kelley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>
> Amen brother!
Thank you
>
> NeXT-style bundles are one of the few ways in which we can appease
> both the UNIX tradionalist *and* go back to the days of using REAL
> FILESYSTEM TOOLS (like cp and a mouse pointer) to install software.
> Package managers may be very sophisticated, but they are always going
> to be a nusance, be it InstallShield, RPM or dpkg. We've already seen
> horrible naming conflicts (SuSE vs. RedHat), unbelievable circular
> dependencies (GNOME) and near-impossible-to-solve chicken-egg problems
> (RPM 3.0.4 -> RPM 4.0+db3).
Which is why I consider the package managers as valid tools to help
bootstrap neophytes into the system, but once they are advanced enough, I
think they should abandon the package managers and take full authority over
their computers.
> With bundles, you can pop in a CD and drag it to wherever you want to
> put it, and it will all work. I hope Apple hasn't screwed them up in
> MacOS X, but we'll see.
Since the public release of Mac OS X has been pushed back to January (Last I
heard), we should start hearing the glowing reports of their bundle handling
at that time and honest reports by the following month.
------------------------------
From: "paul snow" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: alt.os.linux,comp.text.xml,comp.os.linux.setup
Subject: Re: Linux, XML, and assalting Windows
Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2000 17:13:05 GMT
I gave you 26 concrete points to argue. If you can't pick one and state why
it can not be implemented, or why the logic is faulty, you should just go
away.
And learn to read. "XML isn't magic..." right there in my post!
Argue if you want, but why throw rocks?
Bob Hauck <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> On Sat, 26 Aug 2000 13:12:53 GMT, paul snow <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> >Let me get this straight. I have posted a fairly long document that
claims
> >that installation of software is nothing more than properly rendering
> >storage.
>
> You have posted a fairly long document that doesn't really say much
> that is concrete and implementable. You essentially trust that somehow
> XML can solve the problem but don't say how exactly. And you don't
> seem to have investigated what has already been done in this area.
>
> While using XML as a way to structure dependency lists and databases
> for a system-level software installer might have some merit, there is
> a lot more that needs to go into it. Using XML does not by itself solve
> any of the well-known problems of software installation.
>
>
> --
> -| Bob Hauck
> -| To Whom You Are Speaking
> -| http://www.haucks.org/
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Edwin Johnson)
Subject: Re: Epson Color 600 Question
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: 26 Aug 2000 17:17:38 GMT
My company ships printers such as the 600. I called and asked if the
cartridges should be removed prior to shipping and they said no. The reason
is that air is let into that particular cartridge system.
Now while this is not a direct answer to your question, their reasoning
seems to be 'no' for removing and then re-installing the _same_ cartridge.
So to remove a cartridge before it is empty and install a new cartridge
would be ok since you are going to purge or re-prime the printer after the
installation of the new cartridge.
These are just my thoughts based on the reasoning they explained to me when
I called about the other question.
...Edwin
On Fri, 25 Aug 2000 16:38:33 -0500, Aubrey Kilpatrick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>Hello All,
>
>Is it OK to remove a ink cartridge from an Epson Stylus Color 600 printer
>even if it is not empty? I have looked on the Epson site for an answer and
>all I can find is the "Caution - Don't replace an ink cartridge until the
>ink Out Light flashes".
>
>I have heard that a cartridge can be replaced if the print out begins to
>have gaps in it and cleaning the heads does not clear it up. The gaps
>started occuring on my printer immediately after installing a new "Epson"
>black ink cartridge. The color cartridge still works fine. A computer
>technician told me that even some new (even though very rarely) ink
>cartridges can cause this and a new cartridge might clear up the problem.
>The tech also said that if the new cartridge didn't solve the problem then I
>should just go buy me another printer.
>
>Any help, advice, recommendations, etc will be appreciated.
>
>TIA,
>
>aak
>
>
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~ Edwin Johnson ....... [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~
~ http://www.shreve.net/~elj ~
~ ~
~ "Once you have flown, you will walk the ~
~ earth with your eyes turned skyward, ~
~ for there you have been, there you long ~
~ to return." -- da Vinci ~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Dances With Crows)
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.hardware,comp.os.linux.setup
Subject: Re: imwheel stopped working
Date: 26 Aug 2000 17:22:51 GMT
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Sat, 26 Aug 2000 18:03:36 +0100, Anton Suchaneck wrote:
>Since I changed th configuration of imwheel, imwheel stopped working.
>It starts without complaining but my wheel doesnt work. Has anyone have
>a suggestion?
Change /etc/imwheelrc back to the way it used to be, of course! If you
didn't make a backup of the file that worked before changing things,
then I strongly suggest you do that next time.
--
Matt G|There is no Darkness in Eternity/But only Light too dim for us to see
Brainbench MVP for Linux Admin / Those who do not understand Unix are
http://www.brainbench.com / condemned to reinvent it, poorly.
=============================/ ==Henry Spencer
------------------------------
From: "paul snow" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: alt.os.linux,comp.text.xml,comp.os.linux.setup,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Linux, XML, and assalting Windows
Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2000 17:48:43 GMT
Bob Hauck <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> On Sat, 26 Aug 2000 12:52:59 GMT, paul snow <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> >Perhaps the developer doesn't WANT me to know what they are going to do
to
> >my computer's storage in order to install their program. Well, in that
> >case, I don't want their product. I am sick and tired of having a dead
> >machine because some stinking DLL or registry setting is screwed up, and
I
> >haven't got any reasonable way of figuring it out. In fact, I have such
a
> >laptop (a four week old, top of the line Dell with a dead Windows 98)
> >sitting right over there in the corner.
>
> Oh, so you're trying to solve the *Windows* install problem. Oh, I see
> now. Well, that *is* a problem. Not for me, as I avoid Windows, but
> apparently for lots of people. And while the install problem isn't
> just a Windows problem, that system does seem to do things less well
> than others.
Oh, so all those hours I spent installing stuff on Solaris was really
Windows?
The point is that we need to get over the idea that installing is part of
the abstractions that the OS provides. That mindset prevents us from
developing technologies (such as those I am describing here) that can
install across platforms.
The only thing such a facility needs is really basic I/O and access to
stroage. This is a great application for Linux. So I have a Windows
laptop. I think I would be far happier if when it ran, it did so because it
was properly constructued and maintained from a facility running under a
simple, bullet proof Linux. The same facility could maintain my Solaris
box. And my other Linux boxes. Why not?
Say I have DB2 defined in abstract, as I suggest. Then I could "render" an
installation on Linux, or render an installation onto NT, or onto Solaris.
DB2 also provides server versions, client versions, versions for embedded
systems, etc. All of these can be viewed as different renderings of the
same DB2 product, in abstract.
No, all these versions don't have to be on the same CD. XML provides
linking (as does about any other structured format now days). And besides,
with DVD, and a reasonable subset of targets, it just might have them all.
> Since you posted this to a bunch of non-Windows groups, I should point
> out that here are existing system-level installers for Linux and
> FreeBSD that more or less provide what you want. They will give you a
> list of files that are to be installed, tell you what other packages
> this one depends on (and in some systems they will install those for
> you too). The file formats are documented and tools are provided to
> extract various information. You can extract all the components and
> install them by hand if you want, if not the software keeps a database
> of what is installed where so you can do upgrades, a clean uninstall
> (modulo files that the program creates at runtime), get verification
> that files have not been tampered with, and the like.
Can I use FreeBSD to manage my Windows system? Linux? Solaris? Does Linux's
install program work if Linux isn't operational? Can I use these installers
to define DB2 in one abstraction so that it can be expressed on a number of
different targets? And once I do have a properly configured system, can I
back up that configuration information in a way that will allow me to
replace that box in the future, with one running a different OS?
Yeah, in the old days of the early 90's we didn't have to worry about this
stuff. Two months to bring up a new box was just fine, since only 20 people
in the company needed access to that machine. But now I have everyone that
needs these boxes, and their distributed applications.
The same old, same old, only done bigger and better just isn't enough.
> These programs are not perfect, but they are vastly better than the
> one's I've seen for Windows. Perhaps you should look at these before
> you go off redesigning the world in XML. You might get some good ideas
> at least, even if they don't do everything you dream of.
> >My point is we have gotten past the idea that the writer is responsible
> >for laying out each page in a document.
>
> We have? You'd better explain that concept to the 75% of webmasters
> who think HTML is a page-layout language.
So you think the guys that write the content also design these pages? You
think people write in HTML? Or do you think they might use tools to render
those documents into HTML for page layout?
Clearly, you *aren't* a writer.
> >Let's get over the idea that each developer has the responsibility for
> >laying out my storage.
>
> In his copious spare time, the developer will program so that you can
> install any components anywhere and it'll still work.
>
> Clearly, you *aren't* a developer.
My point: In his copious spare time, the developer could specify what their
programs require.
Building components so they can install anywhere is simply increasing the
number of valid representations for the program. This is what we do now
(And have done because *I am* a developer) and it is often a waste of time.
Bottom Line:
I spend a good bit of time reading through install instructions and manuals
and filling out options (as documented) to make part A work with part B over
connector C to server D where E is running on port F and supplying service
G, etc. etc.
These are not usually Windows boxes, but sometimes they are. I end up
typing, clicking, and pushing lots of information into all these programs.
We get something wrong, we pound and pound, reinstall, reformat, click,
poke, and pull. And we get things running. Change something, and we do it
all over again.
You might be the one developer who never deals with configuration
information. Or who thinks learing how to do this on every system, and
(doing it over and over) is just a great way to build up job security. But
I think it is a waste of time.
> --
> -| Bob Hauck
> -| To Whom You Are Speaking
> -| http://www.haucks.org/
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Marcus Webb)
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.help,comp.os.linux.setup
Subject: Re: Lotus Mail
Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2000 18:01:07 GMT
On Thu, 24 Aug 2000 07:30:00 +0800, "someone" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
Assuming we are talking about Lotus Notes or Domino, you just ned to
persuaed the guys running it to load the HTTPD task on the serverf and
then get its IP address, then you can access your mail via a web
browser. We did that for all the guys who wanted to access stuff in
Asia in places where the phone lines are crap, but the net cafes are
prolific, for some reason. Hope this helps.
Regards
Marcus
>Thanks for the reply.
>Is there a mail connector I can use with sendmail/qmail/fetchmail, etc..
>that allows me to get mails from the server if the server is not configured
>for pop/imap due to whatever reasons ?
>
>Thanks again.
>
>
>
>"Peter T. Breuer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
>news:8o0khd$rvv$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>> In comp.os.linux.help someone <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> : My company uses lotus mail server for their internal email needs. My
>problem
>> : is this :- I'll be setting up a internet gateway on a linux box. Is
>there
>> : anyway to setup a linux web-base email server to interface to the lotus
>> : server so that I can read my mails anywhere in the world ?
>>
>> ?? If the lotus mail server supports pop or imap you can get email from
>> it anywhere anyway. Maybe lotus mail isn't mail. Doesn't it have a web
>> interface too? Just curious.
>>
>> Peter
>
>
------------------------------
From: Garry Knight <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Borland C++ for Linux
Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2000 14:52:49 +0100
"Stuart Mika Hankel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Hello. Does anyone know of a version for Linux for development in C? I mean
>an environment for debugging, like Borland C++ for DOS.
The nearest thing I know of to that is Kylix which is likely to be released
later this year.
http://community.borland.com/article/0,1410,21301,00.html (article about Kylix)
http://www.drbob.tdmweb.com/kylix (screenshots)
--
Garry Knight
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
------------------------------
From: Garry Knight <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: How to edit menus?
Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2000 14:59:23 +0100
John Lunney <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>How do I edit menus for say Gnome menu?
With the menu editor. Click the main menu, then Settings, Menu Editor. It's
pretty intuitive. If you want a new submenu, click the menu you want it to be a
submenu of, then enter a name for it. To add an application to a menu or
submenu, click the menu or submenu where you want the item, select Application
as the type, then enter the name you want to appear on the menu, a comment on
what it does (if you want), the and the command to run it. Click the Icon icon
to select the icon to display on the menu. If the application is text-based
(e.g. Midnight Commander), select the "Run in a Terminal" option.
If you make a mistake you can click the Revert button. To delete an entry,
highlight it and press Ctrl+D or click the Delete button. To sort a submenu,
press Ctrl+S or click the Sort Submenu button. To sort a submenu and all its
submenus, press Ctrl+R. You can move menu items around by clicking the Move Up
and Move Down icons.
It's all pretty easy really. Oh, and don't forget to click Save now and again.
--
Garry Knight
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
------------------------------
From: Garry Knight <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: How do you pronounce GNOME?
Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2000 15:16:34 +0100
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Andrew Stephenson) wrote:
>In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] "<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>" writes:
>
>> 1. Is it gnome, like the man who sits by your pond. OR
>> 2. Is it Gee-Nome, as in the human gnome project. OR
>> 3. Is it pronounced similar to GNU, like Gu-Nome.
>>
>> Any Ideas?
>
>Hope other answers have proved satisfactory. (I say '1', FWIW.)
You might know this already, but Gnome stands for GNU Object Model Environment.
And the official pronunciation of GNU is guh-noo. Hence, guh-nome. (And FWIW I
also pronounce it as in 1 when I'm talking to non-Linux users.)
--
Garry Knight
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
------------------------------
From: Garry Knight <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: XWindow Managers
Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2000 15:30:34 +0100
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Andrew Purugganan) wrote:
>Garry Knight ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
>[ Gnome would have a way of changing the settings for Enlightenment.
>Gnome is a desktop manager, E is a window manager.
You've misquoted me. I said, "And it's unlikely that Gnome would have a
way of changing the settings for Englightenment. Gnome is a desktop manager, E
is a window manager." The way you've quoted it, it looks as if I said Gnome
*would* have a way of changing the settings, and it looks as if you corrected
me.
>Sorry, I only have 1 bullet. THe three of us will have to stand next to
>each other in one line ;-)
If you misquote me, I'm sure I can find an extra bullet... :o)
Anyway, thanks for helping out.
--
Garry Knight
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (The Ghost In The Machine)
Crossposted-To: alt.os.linux,comp.text.xml,comp.os.linux.setup,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Linux, XML, and assalting Windows
Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2000 18:09:36 GMT
In comp.os.linux.advocacy, Christopher Browne
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote
on Sat, 26 Aug 2000 03:45:27 GMT
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>Centuries ago, Nostradamus foresaw a time when The Ghost In The Machine
>would say:
>>In comp.os.linux.advocacy, mlw
>><[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>>That's all that XML is, nothing more. It can not replace programs, it is
>>>not a new concept in operating systems.
>>
>>It might replace programs (programs are interpreted data in their
>>own right, after all -- to the right interpreter, such as an x86
>>micro, a JVM, or even a BASIC environment), but it sure looks
>>hard to manage, although not too hard to generate.
>
>It only "replaces" programs if it can express programs itself.
>Note that providing the ability to _embed_ programs is not that;
>that merely replaces one language with another.
>
>>But why can't we use a schema/data approach? Something like:
>>
>>first 8 bytes - magic signature number, just because
>>byte - endianity
>>byte - user-defined version ID
>>2 bytes - number of fields
>>field descriptor byte: 0=short, 1=long, 2=float, 3=double,
>> 4=zero-terminated string
>>field name: zero-terminated string
>>field descriptor byte:
>>field name:
>>...
>>
>>(The floats would be in IEEE format, which is the one 680x0 and
>>80x86 micros use -- and possibly a large number of other computer
>>systems.)
>>
>>Surely somebody out there's thought of a standard for this.
>
>There's not one; there's several.
Doesn't surprise me too much. :-)
>
>Leaping to mind are:
>a) IIOP - the Internet protocol defined for CORBA that does
> essentially what you describe, albeit a _little_ differently;
>b) Casbah's LDO (Lightweight Distributed Objects)
I'll have to check out IIOP. Another obvious one -- albeit it's
not clear it's documented yet -- is Java's persistence format.
(Is it specced to be JVM-compatible?)
>
>>Or one can use a chunky format, something a la Amiga's IFF,
>>where data is in chunks, understood by each program. Chunks
>>could even have DTD-like structures if necessary.
>>
>>But nooooooo....we get to clutter up what is essentially a
>>data-centric stream with a lot of framing clutter. Unless
>>I'm missing something in the DTD spec which allows for the
>>specification in binary of all of this data...?
>
>I think WAP provides some such mapping...
I don't know WAP from THWAP, admittedly. :-)
Is this on the www.w3c.org site?
>--
>[EMAIL PROTECTED] - <http://www.ntlug.org/~cbbrowne/corba.html>
>"What did we agree about a leader??"
>"We agreed we wouldn't have one."
>"Good. Now shut up and do as I say..."
--
[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- insert random misquote here
------------------------------
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End of Linux-Misc Digest
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