First lets get something out in the open, Dell regardless of their sheer bruit
size is a white box builder. The do not really provide anything different then
any other me too guy selling Intel boxes. They do not design the CPU's nor the
IC's on the motherboard or build any custom software solutions to create a
superior product. Don't get me wrong I respect his business tactics and model
but this was all a matter of timing. Now that Dell is offering Linux they are
simply a me too guy trying to take advantage of a market which they know
absolutely nothing about.
Their business model is not truly provisioned at this moment to support a non
standard mainstream OS. 75% of their technical support Staff is non A+
certified, they are using an elaborate intranet help desk that walks them &
customer step by step through the problem. For this reason Dell is ill equipped
to sell Linux until they either actively join the development efforts or hire a
development team in order to provide sufficient Linux support to their
customers.
Selling a multi CPU machine to a customer without SMP support is understandable
since there is not a standard version available that they can do a quick install
with and move to the next server. In this situation Dell is going after the
profit margins by selling the extra CPU's instead of disclaiming up front to
the customer that there is no present SMP support and the system will be
upgradeable to SMP when the kernel arrives. This should allow the customer to
make a judgment call and decline to buy the extra CPU's at the time of purchase
and then wait for SMP support and then buy the CPU's from dell after pricing has
decreased as it does monthly. The customer may also buy the CPU accessories
from the Dell store and the CPU's elsewhere saving an additional 20 to 35% in
price. Or if you are proficient enough simply modify the kernel yourself for
SMP support. This should at least be the customers decision at the time of
purchase with complete disclosure along with the options on paper from Dell,
including the cost of upgrading to the new SMP kernel if a CD is involved, a FTP
source on their web site or whatever else is suited for the customer.
For these reasons buying a Linux system from Dell is a most unwise decision
since their whole business model and support infrastructure is not adequate to
support such a system. Also how will dell support newer modules as they become
available? Will you be forced to only upgrading to Dell approved components
since they have ensured there are drivers available? Believe me Dell will make
a profit in every way they can on a Linux customer more then a typical win 98
customer. You are better off buying from a VA Research or other Linux centric
vendors as long as they remain honest with the pricing trying not to rape the
new linux users. VA in addition to multiple other dedicated Linux vendors are
intent on selling the best possible solution to their customers. They will not
make claims about the power and performance of a multi CPU machine and then sell
it with no SMP support. If you request a Quad system they will disclose all of
the facts as it should be. So in short Dell is the least ideal Linux vendor and
buying any system from them other then a Wintel is bound to lead to endless
headaches.
Regards to all,
Michael
Doug Ledford wrote:
> "Robert M. Hyatt" wrote:
> >
> > On Sat, 10 Apr 1999, Doug Ledford wrote:
> > > To be fair to Dell, they sell Red Hat Linux 5.2 pre-installed on these
> > > systems. If Red Hat Linux 5.2 doesn't support SMP, then neither do
> > > they. Expecting something different from Dell is no different than
> > > expecting Dell to ship an SMP version of Win98. To that extent, Dell
> > > not shipping an SMP capable kernel is because we haven't released one
> > > for Red Hat Linux 5.2 and is our failing. The fact that they will still
> > > sell you multiple CPUs is in anticipation of being able to use the extra
> > > CPUs if you want to do a manual kernel compile or the day that we
> > > release an SMP kernel RPM that can be applied to the machine.
> >
> > I don't think you can 'be fair' to Dell here. This is a totally stupid
> > policy, and would be just a dishonest as selling a quad xeon box with
> > win98 installed. And then letting _you_ figure out how to use all four
> > cpus (hint: spelled win NT server).
> >
> > If they sell a dual box, with a non-SMP linux kernel installed... that
> > is totally stupid... And it will cause a little dissatisfaction with
> > Linux when the problem is the morons at Dell that are shipping such
> > nonsense.
> >
> > >
> > > We decided not to ship an SMP kernel with Red Hat Linux 5.2 because we
> > > knew that there were some problems with 2.0.36 SMP. There were lots of
> > > people that could do OK with it, but then there were other systems that
> > > simply wouldn't work at all. Then there were the occasional lock up
> > > problems. Then there was the occasional SCSI sub-system goes belly up
> > > problem with my driver that's in the stock 2.0.36 (which I fixed in the
> > > 5.1.12 driver version just recently).
> > >
> > > Originally, if we released a 2.0.36 SMP kernel RPM, people would be mad
> > > that we shipped something that wasn't 100% "up to snuff" so to speak. I
> > > would also feel like we fell down if we did that. People rely on us to
> > > not only package things up, but to try and reasonably make sure those
> > > packages work. Shipping a known busted package would violate that
> > > expectation. At this point in time, with all of the patches there are
> > > for 2.0.36 it *might* be possible to do an SMP kernel and finally feel
> > > good about it.
> > >
> >
> > all good points... but it doesn't excuse dell shipping a SMP box that
> > won't do "SMP" stuff. that's insane and a good way to lose customers.
>
> Without getting into the details of this particular case, in other cases
> I know it has been made clear that the current Red Hat Linux offering on
> their boxes doesn't do SMP and the customer has said "I don't care, I
> want multiple CPUs anyway". This makes a certain amount of sense for
> two reasons. One, there is reason to expect an SMP release of the Red
> Hat Linux product at some point in time (presumably not the 3 years you
> would need to wait for the next Windows release). Two, the customer has
> the option of compiling their own SMP kernel. Given those things,
> buying the multiple CPUs that the customer wants now avoids any stepping
> issues or availability issues later. You are also going to need the
> specific heatsinks and such that fit the Dell motherboards, so you can't
> just run down to the corner computer store and buy CPUs later to fit
> these Dell machines, so that's another reason to buy the CPUs now.
>
> In short, Dell is part of our Beta testing program and (as anyone can
> find out by looking at the RawHide product) we are already shipping SMP
> kernels in our beta stuff. So, their practice is not nearly so insane
> as you make it sound. In this particular case you could claim that
> there might have been a breakdown in communications in that Dell didn't
> explicitly tell the customer that the current Red Hat Linux is not SMP
> capable out of the box, but I think that's the worst you could accuse
> them of.
>
> Furthermore, you have to admit that if Dell is dealing with you or
> Robert Brown at Duke, then I'm sure you would be rather put off if they
> refused to sell you the extra CPUs because the current stuff doesn't
> support them considering you know how to compile your own kernel.
> Unlike Win98, you could fix your linux installation to use SMP. So
> where do you draw the line for Dell on when they should or shouldn't
> sell the extra CPUs?
>
> Honestly, I think there may have been a breakdown in communications on
> that sell. I also think that the problem can be remedied. I don't
> think Dell should hold the hard line you suggest for the reasons I
> listed. So, I think you are being unfairly harsh on them.
>
> --
> Doug Ledford <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Opinions expressed are my own, but
> they should be everybody's.
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