>
> Hi, AU A!
>
> Trying to kill the keyboard, [EMAIL PROTECTED] produced:
> > Yea, I'm a nut with IDE, 10 drives on this box, makes for good irc pissing
> > contests.
>
> Well, talk about IRQ latency, especially if you serve a couple
> of other boxes. :-)
Not really... the disks are way faster than needed.
> > You like repeat answers, don't you :-)
>
> I am just thinking at times. :-) Can't stop it then. Which shrink
> do you recommend? :-)
Dr. Ruth? :-)
> > remote tape. I use dd to split the files, seeing as afio knows nothing about
> > the vtbl and i like to update it before I swap tapes...
>
> Hmmm ... dd does not know about vtbl either, you could change it
> by hand/script though, after dd finished. However, there seems
> to be -H, which could probably be used to write the vtbl if one
> desires to automate it.
Nope, dd sure don't, but the script that uses dd does.
> > I can even give u this tape script and modified ftmt (shows space in BYTES
> > guys, M/K/G is VERY silly and annoying), if you really really wanna see it.
>
> M/K/G is a bit more human readable, though, so just make it
> an option.
I was going to do that :-) for all the silly machines.
> > > No. You see, it does not matter how you install them, if by
> > > hand or by some other program, they get written and deleted.
>
> > I know that... let me explain something... I still got a.out bins, 'nuff
> > said :-)
>
> Yes, and? :-)
> I know there's QMAGIC and ZMAGIC but it was new to me the magic
> changed the way ext2 works ... :->
It can effect how it operates actually... look into /lib again :-)
Yeah, i know it's mostly for the tools, however... the kernel can be built
a.out, etc...
> > > There are people who (have to[1]) use loadlin. Loadlin won't
> > > mind, since it (and the kernel) lives on a DOS partition.
>
> > True, but doing it that way is kinda silly, if not stupid IMHO.
>
> Nah, you can break lilo a bit too easy for my taste, e.g. by
> defragmenting the disk or moving the kernel. Loadlin just
> laughs about that ... and it's a nice thing that you can kick
> out DOS just like *snip*. Wish I could do that with Linux
> (to run another Linux kernel, of course).
You have the source... :-)
Stop bitching, and write it :-)
MAke lilo store it'sself in the entire CYL0 HEAD0 area and ext2fs smart...
Lots of the "EZ-DRIVE" type programs to this...
Better yet, mount /boot in it's own partition, with a kernel.
I have done this on some of my customer's boxes :-)
you could also tell ext2defrag to not move some important files...
> > Personally i have no use/need for dos/doze/etc... i haven't touched that
> > "OS" (if you can call it that)
>
> You can, actually, it's a (Quick and) Dirty Operation System,
> unlike some GUIs we know. Doesn't mean it's very good, though.
>
> > > Also note that e2defrag is an experimental program, it could
> > > burn and destroy your partition.
>
> > Also note that I know the author of it personally, along with alot of the
> > kernel hackers... I chat with them daily... I too am a kernel hacker, but I
> > have stayed out of 2.1.x for political reasons, and lack of time.
>
> See, *you* know what e2defrag can do to your HD if you strike
> bad luck, yet you offer it as a good and *safe* solution.
I did? I think I offered it more as a last-ditch effort... atleast, that was
my intent :-)
> Now, the quality of the solution can be debated and probably measured.
I agree...
> But if you frag your HD trying to make it run a backup, you end
> up with no bootable Linux and no HD.
dd if=/vmlinux of=/dev/fd0
and then I use rdev to point it to my backup partition...
> > I'm busy building linux-only hardware.... THAT EVEN WORKS! :-)
>
> Hey, I am not against Linux.
Sure hope not..
> I merely know people who are unable to run a mac or Windows on their own. :-/
Prolly aol subscribers, and the like :-)
> But I happen to have
> and like some legacy games in DOS and had no time to play with
> dosemu yet. (Especially as that *can* do harmful things to the
> continued uptime of your Linux.)
I've no time/manual dextarity for games. I have more important things to do,
like make linux better :-)
> > > [1] Try initialising a AWE32 which has only a port assigned via
> > > jumpers, but gets the DMA, IRQ and so on via a dos proggy.
>
> > I don't use that pnp crap. it's jumpers, or nothing. :-)
>
> Hey, that card is OLD and predates my Linux time. (now, do I
> date myself here? :-)
*ROFL* I won't even comment how old I am or how long I've used linux.
> > > It's also a good test if you can recover from desaster, but a
> > > bit close if you find out you can't.
>
> > Very true... I am always prepared, however, even with different
> > motherboards, etc... I have all the bases covered, including redundent
> > tapes. You can never be to carefull.
>
> You have redundant tapes, good. You store them off-site too
> (or don't you?) Now, what about redundant, compatible tape
> streamers? :-)
Yes, they are stored off site, and they use the tr-1 drive. Not only is it
redundant storage, but the redundant *COPY* can be read by both drives.
So, yes, I also have redundant drives :-)
> And again you say that's a *safe* thing to do, without mentioning
> that you need belts, braces, airbag and 3 parachutes to be safe!
It is if you got redundancies like I have...
> If you want to inflict pain on users, play with Win-users,
> but spare the UNIXen one for a while :->
Who said I was playing? I'm voicing an observation. One that I hope will
encourage free thinking and help others with similar problems.
> [copy FS to FS]
>
> > Not if it's a 4g partition... and you got only one other disk that is 6g...
> > it takes way to long to dd it or cat it...
>
> So what's wrong with afio? (Yes, afio IS faster. I happened
> to test that. Especially on a not 95% full FS).
Nothing's wrong with afio. Remember, I do use it.
> [My partitions]
> > Okay, that may be fine for you... but not for me...
> > mainly because i need/like lots of room, so I simply mount dirs in entire
> > disks :-)
>
> Ok, then make them complete HDs. I am but a single user on an
> 28.8k modem (and still have some unallocated space on the HD).
I'm on a 56k modem link to the world, but I have the internal lan :-)
hopefully I'll be getting a fractional t-1 or better soon...
> > I think the "problem" is that I do compile all my own stuff...
> > including libs, gcc and X... Stuff works faster and has less bloat that way,
> > you know.
>
> I do, in fact, know. But if you did your compiling on a partition
> which only holds temporary data the fragmentation will only happen
> there. Then you move the result to your root or user FS ...
>
> > > [2] I could probably get away with 20 MB, or even with 15. But /
>
> > Nope, no can do. I can't possibly do it considering i got ~5 kernel trees.
>
> ... while /usr/src should have it's own partition as well (maybe
> the same you compile stuff on). You CAN do with a 20 MB / ,
> even if you have 5 completely different kernels with completely
> different libs and modules. Either you happento have 5 of them
> (no problem since you calculate in GBs) and see that you change
> the lib paths in /usr on boot, or you simply wipe root and
> resurrect it from an afio file.
I have to wait for more disks yet, but, that exactly is in my plans for
/usr and a few other dirs....
> Yes, you *can* do that. No, it's not a preferred method for
> normal operation. In fact, this is only useful for me winning
> my argument and a few funny special circumstances.
AHAHAHHA.
> > and loads of sources. Believe me, you woulld be in shock if you saw all the
> > stuff I work on here. It's amazing that I have time to talk to people.
>
> You need a direct neural connection to your 'puters, it seems.
> And a loudspeaker on the 'puter. ;-)
I've been conducting expiraments with... nahhh, I better try to stay on topic
here... >8-(>
> > RPM? no no... dude, I hand compile all my stuff, no dists here.
> > Source tarballs forever!
> > I don't like depending on organizations/teams for precompiled stuff, that
> > can sometimes be non streamlined, or buggy, or compiled wrong.
>
> Now, I don't have the time to hand-compile everything in sight.
Nore do I... the computers do that for me... all 10 of them :-)
When you got 10, you can do it alot faster :-)
> I do compile some stuff, and do pack it into an RPM. Upgrading
> (to my next compile) or removing the whole stuff just is much
> easier. And you do get source RPMs too.
I can see a benifit to that... I think... course, I don't rm much... I just
keep adding disks :-) I ordered 3 more 10G tonite :-)
> > I'm not the only user, and, I feed 10 boxes from this one. (NFS)
>
> Just another reason to get a separate /home partition, neh?
/home already is...
/root is next...
> > /var doen't change enough here to justify it.
>
> /var always changes, and can overflow. In your case, it would
> overflow /tmp as well. Ever ran a system with *no* space in /tmp?
Nope... I make sure it has enuff elbow room.
> But then, it's your system and you may damn well do with it as
> you like. :-)
Unlike windos... :-)
> > I don't do news, cause it's a waste of bandwidth and time, and it also
> > invites spam :-)
>
> Just choose and match your newsgroups. Some are virtually
> spam-free (and any spammer who tried would be very roasty soon).
For stuff I don't have time to read...
> > > [7a] Note that most of the files are shorter than one block (1k)
>
> > Nope... I have many large multimegabyte databases here.
>
> That applied to news. And in databases you seldom have sequential
> reads, do you?
Actually, most of it is sequentially read. No, I'm not explaining why or
what it is :-)
> > I need GBs not MBs
>
> Then make a whole disk your scratch/tmp partition. Or even two
> or three. You are the one with the HDs, :-) though I wonder
> why you don't use SCSI-Raid systems ... but then I guess you
> have your reasons.
Infact, I do have reasons, which are beyond the scope of this group, but,
yet interact with it... because, heck, we are backing it up TO the tape and
FROM the tape :-) I'm not gonna touch the subject, however. You are right, I
do have reasons, which are mostly opinons based on experiances, and on-going
hardware projects... some of which will involve tape at some point in the
future... yes, I have to be vague... top secret stuff, sorry :-)
> > I know this. However.... in 2.0.x cache is over agressive, and tends to
> > kick out your buffers (libs). You can thank me for the tuning in 2.2, it was
> > my suggestion (ranting) to sct.
>
> I do thank you for that.
> Now, one can backport the patch, can't one?
Yup.
> > > Hmmm ... the kernel has no need to look sequentially through
> > > the library to find the relevent part ... it issuses a seek to a
> > > position, then the VFS can just look in the inode, the indirect
> > > and probably double indirect nodes to find the position of the
> > > block(s) on the HD. The inodes should still be in the cache
> > > and if not, are close to each other in the same inode block.
>
> > Unless it's on the disk... it still eats cpu cycles anyhow :-)
>
> But that's not the problem, since your 386 worked well, you
> said, and I guess you have more spare cycles than a whole 386
> can offer for backup.
If it's NOT the libs, then it MUST be something else? If so, what? :-)
Anyone else try this? I don't think so... It never hurts to try, because
it's already broken...
> > SMP in 2.0.x does have a very high latency, but it can be tuned fairly well
> > via IRQtune, unfortunately you can't do this in 2.1/2.2 (or so i'm told it
> > won't matter because of how APIC works) It did work (i think) in SMP tho.
> > Again, I need to find time to test it.
>
> You can't tune it on 2.0.15-18 either (experimental round-robin,
> balanced priority system).
I know. It sucks [place favorite body part here].
> > >But does that not mean
> > > that every *5th* file was not continously written, but had one
> > > (or more) jump(s) in it? That should not be really bad (unless
> > > you start filling up the disk).
>
> > Ok, then explain why it works now... I'm talking not only writing, but
> > reading too. BOTH had the problem before the defragmentation (a.k.a HD
> > restore)
>
> Now, you say it's not a low memory condition, but probably a
> fragmented disk. You also mention buffering does not help.
*nod*
> You say (see below) that now another tape drive acts up and
> won't work at 1000Mbit/s. Remembering that the overhead data
> for the stuff is around 40% ...
*nod*
> ... now that's strange, since even the most fragmented HD
> should be able to give you that sort of throughput. It's not
> the processor (I ran 2000Mbis/s on a single Pentium 150Mhz for
> a long time with no errors of that kind). You have 4 times the
> RAM. Yet one tape won't go at 1000 (while the other one does).
> *thinks (yeah, I am sick)*
Is my computer possesed?
> *lightbulb*
> Hey, if it was really fragmentation, how do we explain that one
> of them runs OK at 1000 and the other doesn't?
Time sensitive drive?
> Do you drive them at different IRQ's on separate controlers?
No. I yank the drive off the same cable.
> What happens if
> you strip down the machine bit by bit until the other tape works
> too?
Can't... I have others using this box and feeding 10 others, remember?
I'm limited in what I can and can't strip out... Downtime is a no-no.
> It could be anything (including bad connections), since
> you opened the machine and did your stuff.
Case opened? no no... my drive sits ontop of the system, and is not in any
enclosure. I have an external connector to the floppy controller.
I do this so I don't have to constantly dick around opening the case, even
tho it's not a big deal, cause the case is a pizza box style one.
So it's the same cables, etc, only the drive changed.
> > > [9] -n means read-only, say no to everything (so it's safe).
> > > zo'e loosely means 'whatever' in Lojban.
>
> > yeah, yeah... *eye's roll* I'm not a nubie... I know however you don't
> > realize/know that... please spare me in the future :-)
> [snip]
> > You really do think I'm clueless eh? this is getting funnier as I read on...
>
> You may know, but does Joe Random Reader know? What's wrong
> with spreading clues (it's how I learned a lot)?
Nothing. Infact, I am.... and I'm causing you to think, aren't I?
> And how come you speak Lojban?
It's less wordy than Klingon?
> > I never buy from iomega... Thier stuff is crap... can't format tapes,
> > etc... totally silly...
>
> That's the 2GB and the MAX (Pro). The 3200 and 800 can (and do).
> But I would never buy a *floppy* tape drive again. :-)
Nore will I, actually... Next attempt will be IDE. :-)
> > I really do think that defragmentation did help.
> > Infact, I plan on fragging the friggin libs on a test box to prove it
> > to myself some time on down the road... mebby... if I get time...
>
> Ah, that's a plan. Oh, while you are on it, how about building
> a complete working ftape/afio ramdisk ... if it's in a ramdisk
> it won't hinder the IDE drive, and you can control the amount
> of fragmentation easily.
WOO, I could do that VERY easily and quickly from my backup partition...
just force it to load it into ram... excellent idea!
> > # load the modules
> [snip]
> > # this seems to be good enough for me... even tho I do have 128M ram :-)
> > swapout 6
> > ftmt setdrvbu 16
> > swapoff -a ; swapon -a
>
> Interesting ... you swapout AFTER ftape is loaded and you replace
> 'buffer' by more kernel memory buffers.
Because I've never had a problem allocating 3 buffer minimum...
> But I don't understand
> why you swapoff-swapon ... you just shorten the amount of RAM
> you have aviable.
Habit, I guess :-) I don't like touching swap, unless it's absolutly
needed... I rather have it chew into the cached disk buffers.
Swap can affect total performance on IDE drives. I like to make damn sure
I'm not into swap when banging on the tape deck as to ensure that the tape
deck gets as much attention as possible from the cpu and os.
> > [015] 0 ftape-calibr.c (ftape_calibrate) - TC for dc_wait()' 21
> > nsec (at 6166 counts).
> > ^^^^------ this does vari... I hope that it's not the reason...
>
> Naah. Doubt it. By how much does it vary?
I'll run a test suite ASAP, and we'll see...
Jan 30 01:33:59 grafixoft kernel: [014] 0 ftape-calibr.c
(ftape_calibrate) - calibr_count: 6163, calibr_time: 9996 us.
Jan 30 01:34:20 grafixoft kernel: [014] 0 ftape-calibr.c
(ftape_calibrate) - calibr_count: 6158, calibr_time: 9996 us.
Jan 30 01:35:18 grafixoft kernel: [014] 0 ftape-calibr.c
(ftape_calibrate) - calibr_count: 5247, calibr_time: 9995 us.
Jan 30 01:35:59 grafixoft kernel: [014] 0 ftape-calibr.c
(ftape_calibrate) - calibr_count: 5151, calibr_time: 9995 us.
Guess it's a little dependent on what is going on... seeing that it CAN
vary, it's not a good thing... but would 1us affect it that much?
I'm quite sure that I could make it vary worse... at the moment my interal
lan is a little quiet, mostly cause I'm writing this now... didn't seem to
harm the t-3000 .... mebby I sould attack it and make it more accurate?
Mebby the older tr-1 is just plain funky?
I also got a tape deck linux hates... I've gottn no help on it either... I
suppose it's to old :-) (QIC-40)
> > Could it be possible that when it's initializing, and a lib (or other file)
> > gets hit and reads disk... we get a wrong count? :-)
>
> Well, probably, but I don't know ftape enough to know how much
> the timing there is critical.
I don't know ftape well, but I do know well enough that this is one of the
"new features" in the newer ftape dists... I should prolly dig deeper into
it myself, and find out.
> Probably it's just a rough idea how fast we are.
>
> > Anything else you need to see ( except my passwords HAHAHAH )? Let me know :-)
>
> Your SSN? :-)
*ROFL*
Atleast you have humor... nice to see that these days of serious butt
nuggets, of whom I dispise... :-)
Yours,
--
http://dr.ea.ms http://IDE.cabi.net http://startrek.off.net
http://CPM.doa.org
________________
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