On Mon, 17 Sep 2001 09:49:20 -0400
dep <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
| On Monday 17 September 2001 08:09, Roger Oberholtzer wrote:
| | But if we look at the bin Laden complaint against the US:
| |
| | - The US currently has a state of military occupation in
| | KSA (Saudi Arabia). The US came when Iraq acted up, but they
| | have not left.
|
| we have been asked to stay, repeatedly and continuously, by the saudi
| royal family.
So we stay. But in the context of my very first sentence, the next
statement explained why HE, BIN LADEN, WHO'S POINT OF VIEW I WAS PRESENTING,
feels this is a problem. Perhaps that was not clear enough in the opening
line of my post.
| | - bin Laden has problems with the KSA royal family. He, and
| | many others too afraid to say so, would prefer a proper
| | Islamic setup, perhaps like in Iran these days. However,
| | the US is, effectively, supporting continued suppression of
| | the Saudi peoples by their support of the royal family.
|
| "proper islamic setup"? you, sir, are guilty of perhaps the greatest
| ethnic slur that could be uttered, for you have in that statement
| painted all islamic peoples with the bin laden brush. iran, shiite,
| would love nothing more than to see all the sunnis fall, which
| includes bin laden, afghanistan, iraq, and a substantial portion of
| the arab world (iranians, by the way, are not arabs). in short, like
(Never said they were. But they are Moslem...)
| so many europeans, you have no goddam idea what you're talking about.
Not so. I was stating how <em> bin Laden </em> sees it.
And he does. If you do not understand your enemy, how do you expect to
fight him? So, I do stand by my statement that it is what he wants.
I did NOT say that the rest of the Islamic world wants or agrees with it.
I do not think they do. But we were discussing bin Laden and his mind
set - which is centered on these facts - whether everyone else agrees
with him or not. This is what he believes. And it effects his activities
and those of the rest of "the base".
Perhaps I was too vague in saying that bin Laden wants an Islamic
setup. OK. They want one as they define it, which is not the way most
Moslems would do so. I was not stating a fact I agreed with, nor stating
what Moslems world wide would like. I was stating what bin Laden wants.
Whether it is a perverted interpretation of Islamic law is neither here
nor there - it is what he wants. Which was all I was presenting. NOT
agreeing with. Just describing.
And he sees America as an obstacle to this. I did not say that was reality.
Only his perception.
(And, I'm not a god damned European. Just one of those god damned Americans.
And, I feel have as much right to voice opinions as anyone. And, all any of
us are doing here is just that. No topic we have brought up is so cut and dry
that we are covering all aspects in our little e-mails. No matter what one of
us writes, someone can point out a problem and shoot it full of holes.)
| | - So, he wants the US out of KSA so the country can move forward.
| | As long as the US stays, he feels it is a military occupation
| | that does more to support the royal family than to deter Iraq
| | or increase peace in the area. And, peace in KSA and the Gulf at
| | the price of attacks at home?
|
| your definition if forward is a peculiar one. and we do not give a
| toot as to what he feels until what he feels is the fires of hell,
| which shall be coming along to collect him shortly.
'forward' as HE sees it. That was the whole point. As HE sees it.
Surely he is wrong. But I WANT to understand why someone would do this.
I need to see what his point of view is. I need this to come to grips
with things. September 11 was not a random act of hatred. So then what
was it. What would a person have to believe in order to do such a thing?
I have many friends who are Arabs. I am unsure how to relate to them now.
They are my friends. What would it take for them to think like this? Could
they? I listen to them as always. Do I hear the same thing? Have they
been saying things I never paid close attention to but, if I know how
bin Laden thinks, maybe I will hear a different meaning?
This was what my exercise was all about.
| | In no way does this justify September 11th.
|
| ah yes, the whole "the u.s. had it coming, but that's not to say that
| the u.s. had it coming" crap we're beginning to hear from the
| cheese-eating surrender monkeys of the world.
You are reading into this other that was intended. The US did not have
this comming. No one does. Ever. Period. If you knew me you would not
feel this about my character. Your statement absolutely does not describe
me. Perhaps in the sake of brevity this does not come across. That is
my mistake.
I am only suggesting that the US pay more attention to the whole picture.
Take Pakistan. (Insert joke here.) The US poured lots of money into
Pakistan when they helped in Afghanistan. Both sides were 'happy'. Why
do you think Pakistan did this? To get money and arms for their fight with
India. So, when the Pakistan government wanted to spend some of that
cash on, say, fighter aircraft from the US, they were told no, and some
money was and still is impounded. Did the US have all this sorted out
with Pakistan before hand? No. Instead, it was sort of a Scarlett O'Hara
number. The resulting relationship with Pakistan has suffered. They feel
cheated. This is why there was concern that Pakistan might not want to
get burned (as they see it - remember - others have a point of view, too)
a second time. I wonder what concessions the US have made to get this
support from Pakistan and what new problems are being layed now.
| | But if the US would
| | just stay out of some problems, all might be better off. As to the
| | concern over oil, well, there are other sources than KSA. If an
| | Islamic regime started by cutting back on oil, then so be it.
| | Conserve. It is possible.
| |
| | I still agree with Keith that terrorism will not go away. There
| | will never be a time when everyone is content. So why go out of
| | your way to be a target?
|
| your ringing endorsement of cowardice is duly noted.
How do you get this from what I wrote?
Is a coward someone who better plans his battles? Or sees beyond
today's battle to the bigger one tommorrow.
And, I think tommorrow's bigger battle is here today.
--
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Roger Oberholtzer E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
OPQ Systems AB WWW: http://www.opq.se
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