On Tue, Jun 28, 2011 at 5:42 AM, Paul Saenz <forensicneoph...@gmail.com>wrote:
> Well pardon me for misunderstanding the spirit of the "Linux > Community." Don't get me wrong Peter. I appreciate your outlook of the > situation and your clarifications in understanding the mentality of > the Linux "Community." Also Peter I have to say thanks to you because > your generosity and helpfulness has helped to reinforce my > delusions.<$comment!=Sacrcasm> I must also add that there ARE also > others who have contributed to my delusions. At first I had the > delusion that the Linux "Community" had an attitude of generosity and > helpfulness, but over the years I've learned that many don't operate > on those principals. > This entire thread went way further than I thought it would. I didn't mean to make it sound like you were really doing something wrong it was more to explain why people give those responses and use your email as an example on what to change to reduce the chances of getting one. To be honest I've disliked the Linux community as a whole for a long time. I just never liked the vibe I got from most of the people. It is a community of a lot of various personalities some good some bad. There are a lot of helpful people in the community that will take the time to help new users, and be just all around good participants in the community. You also have a good number of people who don't know how to be social, and hide behind screens so they don't care what they say or how they make people feel. You also have people who think they are gods and regardless if they are or not they just feel they are better than others and won't help. You of course find this in any online community, but I've found Linux to be one of the tougher ones. A lot of people had to learn things on their own because there wasn't another option. That has been passed down and people feel they need to continue the tradition. At least that is how I've viewed it over the years. It isn't that there aren't a lot of smart, kind people in the community, but it is sometimes hard to pick them out. I haven't been involved in the community really, I was never happy in it early on and didn't feel like associating myself with the majority of people I met. I've been happier with the people in this group, but I'm not active only because I don't find a lot of topics I am interested in discussing. My example of my friend was only to show that while most people are always willing to help, and I did help quite a bit, regardless of how nice someone is the questions tend to get to be too much over time. My email was not to say you were asking too many questions or all of your questions were too simple, I was just pointing out some of the reasons why people tend to give those responses, at least in my experience. > > Sorry, but in my idealistic delusions, I like to put my faith in motos > like "you scratch my back and I'll scratch yours" and "give and it > will be given to you." I don't know how that works in the techie > world, but in my world view, I firmly believe that every time I help > someone, it actually helps me. > There is certainly nothing wrong with that, but I don't think a lot of people are going to be thinking that the new Linux user they are helping is going to be helping them anytime soon. I don't think they actively avoid new users for that reason, but there is usually a big enough gap that its going to be a long time. Also in the Linux community, people might not scratch your back because your back is licensed under BSD instead of GPL, blah blah blah. > > I realize that there is a learning curve in the techie world. If I see > a question that is within my sphere of understanding, and the > questioner is a little behind that curve, I like to think that I will > bend over backwards to help direct them to the next plot or so on that > curve, but I don't want to stop there. I try to give them as much as I > can to help them simply because I want to be helpful. Unfortunately, > there are some who have done the same for me, and they are guilty of > reinforcing my delusions. For certain, I try never to give the > slightest allusion to someone's ignorance if they are not on the same > level of understanding that I am in regard to any technology or if > they do not conform to my standard of behavior. I may not be perfect > in that regard, but this group has certainly helped to cemented the > conviction that I must be. > Helping people is not a bad thing, but it doesn't scale. There is a point that there isn't time and you have to prioritize. To a lot of new users a lot of somewhat simple problems seem like the end of the world, but someone who might have the answer just can't justify the time because it isn't the end of their world, and what they are working on really is important. Smart people can usually learn anything, but being able to effectively apply it or solve problems with it is an entirely different thing. I'd much rather work with someone who can take information and run with it, than someone that knows everything but has trouble using it effectively. So seeing someone take a problem and approach it from different angles and come back with "Well I did this and that and it didn't work" shows me that they were trying, and might have had decent approaches, but were missing some key piece of information to solve the problem. Then you can easily point them in the right direction without having to hold their hand. It shows they cared enough to try. Some people don't care enough to even search, it is easier for them to ask you then ask Google and have to read. I once had a conversation with someone who wanted help with installing phpmyadmin. The install doc had statements in it for setting up permissions in MySQL. Instead of typing in those statements by hand or even TRYING to copy and paste them, the guy messages me asking for an easier way to do it. This turned into paragraphs of writing on his end and when it was all said and done he said "well the command was long and I thought you might have a easier solution". His first message was longer than the entire SQL statement, but it was easier for him to type the question than the SQL statement. When I asked why he didn't copy and paste, he said he didn't know he could paste in PuTTY. Why not try? I know that you would have tried, and a lot of people would have, but there are also a number of people who won't, and those make a bad name for a lot of new Linux users. > > I also like to be helpful when I can in a effort to relieve those who > have greater expertise from having to answer every rudimentary > question. That is my way of contributing to the "Community." > Personally it does not concern me if an inquirer has not researched a > problem or solution. I guess that maybe since I am a late comer to the > Linux "Community" that Philosophical Model still seems to be foreign > to me. > > Although I don't feel a great need to defend myself, in my defense, I > can honestly say that the questions that I ask are probably in the > neighborhood of 1/10 of a percent of what I have learned over the past > few years. 99.9 percent of the time, I research. I don't ask a > question unless I feel I have good reason. That is because I am well > aware that many among the Linux "Community" don't have the same > attitude or philosophy that I do. I know exactly the specific reason > why I asked that question, and I still am convinced that I had good > reason to do so. The assumption that my reasoning is faulty could be a > mistake. > I certainly realize this, and this is why I made my final comment about you learning a lot and that you shouldn't feel the need to bucket yourself as a novice/newbie. > > Needless to say, I will take your suggestions to heart Peter. I will > commit to memory that in general the LInux "Community" does not have > the same attitude that I do, and I will rarely bother them with my > questions. I hope you understand that sometimes it can be challenging > to suppress default behavior. > Please ask questions, and participate, I was only pointing out the things that could be improved upon that really will benefit you more than anyone on the list. It might save us time answering the questions but the skill of knowing how to do good research is very valuable. I may tell people to search for things to save myself sometimes, but ultimately I want them to benefit from having good research skills. You have, as I mentioned, learned a lot so you have done some of this, but it is a skill that can always be improved. I ask questions I could research, sometimes it really is the best thing you need to do, but usually the people I am doing this with are all people with strong skills in certain areas just like myself so it is more efficient across the group to do this at times. We know that all of us can take a piece of information and run with it, and that we can come back with the right questions if we really need to drill down deeper. > > On the other hand, it seems to me that the RTM/LMGTFY is an obsolete > business model. Linux is a business and it is my opinion that LInux > should evolve with the trends of the day. It seems to me that these > days the prevailing business model is to be quite generous in offering > help especially in the tech support department. > As technical as some of these things are, and the required depth that some things require they are sometimes the best response (except for LMGTFY, that one I dislike a lot) I know that dealing with my dad and Ubuntu was difficult. He would need to do something, and then he would have another question, and that would lead to another, and in the end I felt like starting the conversation over and starting with, "This is how Linux works..." because he's basically asking questions that require so much background it would take forever to answer them all. Every detail matters too... OMG this error message says ext3 and you said ext4, omg omg omg what is this inode error? what is an inode? what is a file system? how does that work? omg omg omg. I mean computers are simple right? you just click some buttons and things work, so why should it take more than 20 simple questions to understand how it all works... right? Sometimes you just have to say, read the damn manual if you care, otherwise, you don't really care. > > To me, it seems no wonder that M$ and Mac have dominated the Desktop > OS industry, alluding to another discussion, as they have concentrated > their efforts on tech support and user-friendliness. It seems quite > remarkable to me that after witnessing the success of M$ and Mac for > 15+ years due to their tech support and user-friendliness business > model that Linux users would persist in the RTM/LMGTFY business model. > The users themselves are the "Linux" business representatives, since > there is no-one else unless you pay for RH or SUSE and such support. > They have prolonged discussions searching for a solution for their > "desktop" failure when the answer is staring them right in the face. > It seems to me that, at least in my view, the whole "tech" world has > embraced the philosophy of offering free services to potential > customers because then they will like you and bring their business to > you, except, of course, the LInux Community. > > I think that it is a big mistake to hold on to that philosophy. I > really don't intend to suggest that anyone is ignorant or stupid, but > to be honest, that mentality reminds me of the monkey trap. They put > food in a coconut with a small hole. When the monkey puts his hand in > the hole to get the food, he can't let go even if it kills him. > > It's a wonder to me that anyone, who is not at or above sysAdmin level > even uses Linux considering the abuse they will have to endure if they > choose to conduct such an endeavor as I have personally experienced. I > guess I am just a glutton for punishment. But, on the other hand, I am > rather satisfied with what I have accomplished so farand there are > actually worthwhile benifits. > Some don't deal with it. I stopped using Linux for a long time because I felt my time was better spent fixing issues that made more sense than screwing with compiling drivers for my awesome new sound card just so it worked. I was right, and when I came back to it I had a lot of skills in researching so I rarely dealt with people in the community and primarily just found answers to problems or found solutions myself. > > The reason that I refer to my status as a novice from time to time is > because I feel that it would be very constructive for the "Community" > to hear the perspective of someone who is simply a user, and not a > sysAdmin. Not because I'm trying to elicit favor, help or sympathy. > Truth be told, I do it in an effort and for the hope that it will dawn > on some in the Linux Community that they need to pay attention to the > non tech user if they want to increase their desktop user footprint. > I did not mean you were looking for special treatment. I didn't want you to get hung up on your experience level. I didn't want your views to be looked down on or discarded just because you were a novice, and when I saw "Which being of a Novice is subject to revision." I felt that you were saying that your 2 cents might be incorrect simply because you are less experienced, and it might be true, but you shouldn't feel that way. You have a statement to make, you make it, and if you are missing a detail, then so be it. Nobody knows everything. > > To be honest, there is nothing that has discouraged me from wanting to > use Linux more than this user group. The technical challenge is > undaunting to me. And being a member of this group from the very > beginning of my adoption of Linux, I can assure EVERYONE in this group > that I KNOW EXACTLY why, and that I have THE best understanding of why > people don't adopt Linux as their desktop period! That is because I > have experience it for myself coming from the non tech user world. I > know that many on the list are going to rage over that statement, and > you can just go ahead and flame on. I don't care what anyone says. > That LMGTFY trash is faulty, outdated and counterproductive. You > defeat your purpose. > +1 to most of it. I think this group has been better than a lot minus the pointless trolling at times. Conversations tend to be less technical, which I'm not fond of, but I'm also not really contributing so I can't complain. > > I also find it quite remarkable when there are literally a thousands > distros that can be built from a bare kernel, let alone gentoo, > slackware and arch and etc, but some think that it is a mistake that > ONE distro is venturing to test out new concepts and user interface > philosophies. Furthermore, that one distro seems to have embraced the > business model that has overwhelmingly swept over the tech world and > that also is viewed as a mistake. > > Let me ask those among us who insist on sticking with the horse driven > plow.<no disrespect intended> How can you test UI if you don't put it > out into the general public? How will you know which direction the UI > development should go unless you study it over a long periods of time > using database technology? I know there are those among this group who > know exactly what I'm talking about. And there are others who may not, > but I would not suggest that would indicate a lack of intelligence. > > It is my personal opinion that Mark Shuttleworth, and not a few > others, have discarded the antiquated philosophy of RTM/LMGTFY, and > that is the secret of their success. > For those who insist on the horse driven plow philosophy, I hope I > will not cause you to prematurely turn over in your graves when I help > someone on the list regardless of whether they have researched, or > whether they are worthy of help according to the Linux "Community" > business model. > > It seems to me that if someone doesn't want to answer my question, or > if they feel that I havn't done enough research to be worthy of an > answer according to Linux Community standards, that they could relieve > themselves of undue effort and stress by simply not responding to my > email AND save time to boot! I find it ratheR intriguing that someone > would feel the need to go through all the trouble to LMGTFY in order > to insure that I comply with the Linux Community standard when all > they have to do is click away from my email! > I think LMGTFY is a horrible thing to send to people. I've never used it, even though I say it can be a tool to use at times. It is like gift wrapping a giant middle finger and sending it to someone. "oh hai, let me show you how much you suck" > > So I must apologize for my persistence in delusional behavior and for > setting a sticky bit on the file that says there may be someone out > there in the vast recesses of planet "Linux Community" who would have > the same attitude that I do and would be happy to help me regardless > of whether I am worthy of "Linux Community" citizenship. In my defense > I must repeat that there are individual who have contributed to my > delusional behavior. > There are people who are willing to help, but IMO there were more questions for us to ask than answers to give. It is sort of like asking, "What is a good Linux distro?". There are so many options and one of the best responses to that is, "search for it". It has been asked plenty of times, by plenty of people, and answered over and over by even more people. > > May the wisdom of Linux Community business model endure forever. May > it never change so that Uber LInux SysAdmins can live in eternal bliss > and comfort! Let it never be said that someone who has not fulfilled > the commandment to RTM was ever given help in spite of their > unworthiness. Yes, and never lose faith in LMGTFY, the savior of > planet Linux. Go on. Flame on! Just refute me and ignore me. My > opinion could NOT POSSIBLY have any bearing or carry any impact. No! > No! Not in the midst of such wisdom, understanding and knowledge! > _______________________________________________ > LinuxUsers mailing list > LinuxUsers@socallinux.org > http://socallinux.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/linuxusers >
_______________________________________________ LinuxUsers mailing list LinuxUsers@socallinux.org http://socallinux.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/linuxusers
