Hello Jeff,

Again thank you for your interest in LISP and please be sure that we are 
considering your comments
as they merit to be.

In our discussion last week, I proposed to add a discussion about the risk of 
cache poisoning
with negative replies. The draft with this discussion will be submitted with 
the other comments that
we will receive during the next IETF. So that, the draft should be presented 
publicly available
during mid of August. Otherwise, feel free to participate in the effort for 
securing the mappings (see
draft-saucez-lisp-mapping-security-00) where we are looking to see how to avoid 
someone to
cheat with the mappings it provides.

However, in our mail exchanges, I said that the cache management was more than 
a security problem
and was more important than just negative replies. You can inject a lot of 
entries with positive replies as
well, particularly in IPv6. You can have this by massively de aggregating the 
prefixes. Again, this is
not a security problem, this feature can lead to security but cache management 
is first a general problem
in LISP and in Map-and-Encap in general. It thus merit to be discussed in the 
main specs. However, 
researches have shown that the cache management was not as dramatic as we could 
expect. Of course
the first study in 2007 was with a mid-size campus network and I could 
understand that you considered
that the work was not relevant. Nevertheless, the study has been repeated this 
year with a traffic trace from
an operator (and not a pet-operator, a real one that has millions of customer 
today) and the conclusion is
the same. So if you still think that our research sucks and is not 
representative, I would be very happy to get
a traffic trace on your network and do the evaluation. The only limit we have 
is the time you are ready to wait
for the simulation to complete! Do not hesitate to provide us a 10-year  full 
packet trace from your network
and we will do all the work for you to see if LISP could be used in your 
network or if it would become a
catastrophe. 

On 11 Jul 2011, at 06:57, Jeff Wheeler wrote:

> On Mon, Jul 11, 2011 at 12:29 AM, Dino Farinacci <[email protected]> wrote:
>> I don't know what you mean, but if your definition of a 'destination
>> network' is either a single or multi-homed site, then the FIB would hold 50K
>> entries.
> 
> I am not responding to all of the points raised in your message,
> because you are still missing the fundamental problem that negative
> replies from the LISP Mapping Service, which should be cached in the
> ITR, can cause the table to be inflated to a size that is, literally,
> ten times the number of possible positive mapping entries.  Once
> again, read my original LISP mailing list post on this subject.
> 

As I am mentioning since a few days now, your are focusing on a small part of 
the problem. The
real problem is cache management in general. Negative replies are only a very 
very small part
of the problem.

> If you read the part in the MS draft that dictates negative replies
> must not overlap any possible positive mappings, and consider how RIRs
> are currently allocating IPv6 address space to networks, you should
> easily realize how this part of the MS protocol needs additional
> flexibility.  Quite simply, a 50k entry IPv6 table would indeed
> consume 500k entries when negative entries are included.
> 

Could you provide more information about the numbers? From where is the 10 
factor coming?

> The simple arithmetic is in my original post, months ago.
> 

I think that the problem is more than just simple arithmetic so please provide 
more details about
how you obtained your results. Sorry I am just a researcher so I do need a lot 
of details to be able
to understand the things.

Thank you again and please ask for a slot at next IETF to make the discussion 
growing.

Cheers,

Damien Saucez


> -- 
> Jeff S Wheeler <[email protected]>
> Sr Network Operator  /  Innovative Network Concepts
> _______________________________________________
> lisp mailing list
> [email protected]
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lisp

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