On Wed, 7 Feb 2001, Chuq Von Rospach wrote:
Will add a 2cents. Sorry for the non-snipped context.
> On 2/7/01 5:56 AM, "Amy Stinson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > Why is it so dead here? Aren't there MORE lists now?
> > > You'd think this place would be pretty busy.
<snip>
>
> First, the list has been on auto-pilot for basically forever. There's
> very little management, and as far as I can tell, no marketing or any
> attempt to make the list known to the outside world -- so while there
> are zillions of new lists and list managers out there, why should they
> know of the existance of the list and why should they come here
> instead of other resources that ARE attempting to attract their
> attention?
>
> Unless you hear about list-managers by word of mouth, you don't hear
> about it. And even if you do, why should someone who doesn't already
> know the list come to it? It's basically a ghost list -- the net grew
> up, and the list just hung out in an eddy and got left behind.
I found out about the list by doing a Liszt-search. *Years* ago. I'm not
bothered that there is extra-low traffic here now; I've always felt
amply enriched by the discussions on various issues. The place *now* is
not a rotting cave; the latter would be where spammers have taken over.
> Second -- the list isn't terribly open to newcomers. I've seen a good
> number of people come around this place to ask for help and get
> variations of the "what a stupid question, why are you wasting our
> time?" response.
Somehow I sensed that I should not be asking questions until I knew more
and until I had my goals more clearly defined. No problem there.
> A great introduction to new users looking for places
> that are resources as they learn this stuff.
>
> Third -- this list isn't a good place to be unless you stick to what
> certain members consider appropriate attitudes and policies. Anything
> they consider inappropriate gets badgered and bludgeoned into
> oblivion, which makes it very hard to discuss emerging issues and
> practices, unless they happen to match their view of how stuff ought
> to be run.
I figured I was learning here some of the manners of iNET. I observed how
people treated each other and figured when I became a grown-up, so to
speak, I'd follow the same.
I've in the past enjoyed Chuq's posts. IMHO he is ranting today &
expressing disappointment. I'm a amateur taking up the _con_ side of
the debate.
> This place is a ghost town -- it's sitting here, slowly rotting in the
> deserve, because nobody manages it, nobody's attempted to make it a
> place people want to be, nobody's attempted to make it a place people
> CAN find, and if they do happen to find it, they'll as likely be
> greeted with silence or a rude attack as actually have their questions
> answered. There's no fresh blood, no new ideas, and no tolerance of
> either. So it's the same 12 old pharts (myself included) who
> occasionally wake up from the mid-afternoon nap to re-enact last
> Tuesday's argument again. Except I gave up and just don't bother any
> more, since I have arguments on both sides memorized, so I don't need
> to actually have the argument any more...
>
> On 2/7/01 8:25 AM, "J C Lawrence" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > time the average level of clue among list moderators has not only
> > fallen severely over recent years, but the awareness that they need
> > clue has dropped as well. Not only in the dark, but blind.
I assume there is a need for moderators. Both amateur and semi-pro, as
they say in tennis. _Besides the clumsy student._ I'm planning to be
doing that sooner or later. I'm on a list which recently was moved from
<egroups> to <Yahoogroups>, and the environment there is tacky. I don't
know if there is a way to market groups for 1, 2, and 3$ per year however
I expect to one day find out. Well....
>
> And who's taken a lead to teach these people how to be admins? And if
> nobody's setting up systems to teach them and convincing them that
> it's in their best interest to learn -- why should they? This place is
> the hermit on the mountain, somehow expecting everyone down in the
> valley to know to come up here for instruction, but nobody's gone down
> into the valley in so long the villages don't even hear rumors of the
> hermits any more...
>
People unwilling to deal with a little elitism are gonna have a problem
taking any more college courses. :)
> > Why so much pessimism about new and unskilled list admins? We
> > all had to learn the ropes once. I don't begrudge anyone who's
> > willing to try... I've helped start about a half dozen spin-offs
> > from one list that I run. In my humble opinion, small specialty
> > topics are one of the things mailing lists handle very well.
I'm happy to hear this. I hear so much, how good NewsGroups are, but I
find the NG environment -- tech wise -- is less well-controlled. With
lists, lost messages seem less of a constant hazard. Agreeing
again. :)
> Way to go, Murr. (and while Murr and I don't agree on a lot, I'm
> saying that in all sincerity). I try to do the same. I'd like to do
> more, and if I ever have free time again, I will (I have things I want
> to do along this line, since it's clear list-managers never will --
> but I've also realized doing it badly is worse than doing nothing at
> all, so it's on hold until I have the time and resources to do
> something I won't be embarrassed by).
>
> I really wish list-managers was an active, vibrant group, taking new
> admins by the hand, leading by example, and blazing new trails as the
> whole e-mail universe morphs around us. But this list hasn't shown any
> interest in new techniques or technologies, hasn't shown any tolerance
> of newbies, and isn't really interested in doing much of anything --
> which is fine. I'm not saying it should be different than it is. But
> it's too bad that, given the knowledgebase of people here, we aren't
> more actively attempting to evangelize "how it ought to be" to those
> that are receptive to learning.
>
>
> --
> Chuq Von Rospach, Internet Gnome <http://www.chuqui.com>
> [<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> = <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> = <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>]
> Yes, yes, I've finally finished my home page. Lucky you.
>
Paul "I loathe people who keep dogs: they are cowards
Bloomington, Ind who haven't got the guts to bite people
themselves." -- A Strindberg
> Love is the process of my leading you gently back to yourself.
> - Saint Exupery
>
>
>
