Eu achei interessante...... :)
William Rufino Desenvolvedor Web - Analista de Sistemas 31 8875-3143 http://www.williamrufino.com.br http://www.websitesinteligentes.com.br <http://www.williamrufino.com.br/> Em 12 de novembro de 2010 16:42, Marcus Cavalcanti < [email protected]> escreveu: > PVT :) > > > -- > Marcus Cavalcanti > 21 9144-5068 > www.marcuscavalcanti.net/blog > > > 2010/11/12 Eric Saboia <[email protected]> > >> Eu poderia rebater todas suas contra-afirmações, talvez exceto o JPA.. Mas >> vou parar por aqui também pois fugiu totalmente do tópico =P >> >> >> 2010/11/12 Marcus Cavalcanti <[email protected]> >> >>> Noto alguns mitos nas suas afirmações: >>> >>> 1) Difícil de debbugar? Conhece o Hibernate Tools? E outra coisa, difícil >>> de debbugar em que sentido? >>> >>> 2) Concordo em partes, a documentação não é o ponto forte do Hibernate, >>> entretanto, como ele se trata de uns frameworks mais sólidos e conhecidos do >>> mercado, o que mais existe são bons textos, referências e artigos sobre o >>> Hibernate. Você encontra TUDO o que quiser! >>> >>> 3) Acho que você está confundindo as coisas, você não precisa de outro >>> framework não, nesse caso o Hibernate É O framework e ele implementa o JPA, >>> que é a API padrão de persitência do Java. As coisas no Java são diferentes, >>> é tudo mais organizado e qualquer framework que quiser implementar >>> persistência através do conceito mapeamento objeto relacional, deve >>> implementar o JPA. Você pode inclusive usar o JPA puro, sem usar o >>> Hibernate. >>> >>> 4) Lento? Baseado em que sua afirmativa? Uma das maiores preocupações do >>> Hibernate é a performance, ele tem cache de primeiro nível de forma nativa >>> (session object) e implementa cache de segundo nível (usa o EHCACHE de forma >>> default) e ainda tem cache de terceiro nível. Fornece recursos fantásticos >>> como LazyInatialization (que é setado por default). E o que é comum no Java? >>> haha não entendo quando as pessoas falam do Java como se fosse qualquer >>> coisa generalizada, é engraçado isso. >>> >>> Concordo que agora saiu um pouco do tópico, está OFF, massó queria >>> entender os motivos do Eric odiar o Hibernate. Eric, foi mal, mas seus >>> argumentos não tem muita coerência :) >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Marcus Cavalcanti >>> 21 9144-5068 >>> www.marcuscavalcanti.net/blog >>> >>> >>> 2010/11/12 Eric Saboia <[email protected]> >>> >>>> 1- Difícil de debugar >>>> 2- Documentação complicada >>>> 4- Precisa do complemento de outro framework (JPA) pra que as notações >>>> de mapeamento sejam suficientes (Aliás, coisa comum no Java, você não faz >>>> uma porcaria de projeto com menos de 6 frames).. >>>> 3- LENTO por natureza, é necessário N preocupações pra fazer ele tratar >>>> as querys de forma performática (Também comum no Java) >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 2010/11/12 Marcus Cavalcanti <[email protected]> >>>> >>>>> Eric, só por curiosidade, por que você odeia o Hibernate? >>>>> >>>>> Sério, fiquei curioso, é a primeira vez que eu vejo alguém dizendo isso >>>>> hehe .. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Marcus Cavalcanti >>>>> 21 9144-5068 >>>>> www.marcuscavalcanti.net/blog >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> 2010/11/12 Eric Saboia <[email protected]> >>>>> >>>>>> Eu discordo e odeio o Hibernate, assim como conheço muita gente que >>>>>> tem a sua opnião. >>>>>> >>>>>> Por isso que digo, vai de cada um mesmo.. >>>>>> >>>>>> 2010/11/12 Marcus Cavalcanti <[email protected]> >>>>>> >>>>>> Eu trabalho com Hibernate otempo inteiro e sinto muita falta de uma >>>>>>> solução semelhante e robusta no PHP, algo que o Doctrine está tentando >>>>>>> ser. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> O ActiveRecord tem o propósito diferente do ORM, uma solução ORM é >>>>>>> infinitamente mais robusta e flexível que o ActiveRecord. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> Marcus Cavalcanti >>>>>>> 21 9144-5068 >>>>>>> www.marcuscavalcanti.net/blog >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 2010/11/12 Eric Saboia <[email protected]> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sinceramente, trabalho com hibernate no java, mas prefiro muito mais >>>>>>>> a pattern Active Record ao ORM. E mesmo em projetos grandes, nunca >>>>>>>> senti >>>>>>>> falta do ORM no PHP. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Mas isso vai de cada um mesmo, e é pra isso que existem frameworks >>>>>>>> específicos pra ORM, como o Doctrine. Sendo de fácil integração, não >>>>>>>> vejo >>>>>>>> porque o CI deveria se preocupa em por um ORM em seu core. Usa quem >>>>>>>> quer.. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 2010/11/12 William Rufino <[email protected]> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Hum! Realmente nunca precisei/estudei orm, mas vou dar uma estudada >>>>>>>>> no datamapper com CI pra ver se fica bacana sei la :) >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> William Rufino >>>>>>>>> Desenvolvedor Web - Analista de Sistemas >>>>>>>>> 31 8875-3143 >>>>>>>>> http://www.williamrufino.com.br >>>>>>>>> http://www.websitesinteligentes.com.br<http://www.williamrufino.com.br/> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Em 12 de novembro de 2010 13:48, Marcus Cavalcanti < >>>>>>>>> [email protected]> escreveu: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> William, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Depende do escopo do seu projeto, se seu projeto é simples eu acho >>>>>>>>>> ORM um tiro no pé, mas se você tem um projeto com muitas entidades, >>>>>>>>>> relacionamentos, etc, o ORM te trás uma agilidade absurda e você >>>>>>>>>> consegue >>>>>>>>>> trabalhar totalmente com objetos, praticamente sem conhecer a fundo >>>>>>>>>> a sua >>>>>>>>>> camada de persistência. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>> Marcus Cavalcanti >>>>>>>>>> 21 9144-5068 >>>>>>>>>> www.marcuscavalcanti.net/blog >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> 2010/11/12 William Rufino <[email protected]> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> orm dap ra integrar com o datamapper ou doctrine >>>>>>>>>>> mas qual a vantagem real de se usar orm? (nunca trabalhei com urm >>>>>>>>>>> e não vejo problema algum em se escrever queries) >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> William Rufino >>>>>>>>>>> Desenvolvedor Web - Analista de Sistemas >>>>>>>>>>> 31 8875-3143 >>>>>>>>>>> http://www.williamrufino.com.br >>>>>>>>>>> http://www.websitesinteligentes.com.br<http://www.williamrufino.com.br/> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Em 12 de novembro de 2010 13:36, Marcus Cavalcanti < >>>>>>>>>>> [email protected]> escreveu: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Vários.. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Vários recursos que eu costumo usar, o CI não dá suporte, outro >>>>>>>>>>>> motivo são coisas que o framework não evoluiu. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> - Cache (de verdade) >>>>>>>>>>>> - ORM >>>>>>>>>>>> - Suporte a serviços >>>>>>>>>>>> - Insistẽncia no suporte a PHP4 até hoje >>>>>>>>>>>> - API de controle de acesso (RBAC, de preferência) >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Tem alguns projetos, que uso outros componentes dentro do CI, >>>>>>>>>>>> por exemplo, uso muitas API's do ZendFramework dentro do CI, mas >>>>>>>>>>>> dependendo >>>>>>>>>>>> do que você usar, será necessário modificar o core e com isso vocẽ >>>>>>>>>>>> não >>>>>>>>>>>> consegue atualizar o projeto. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Eu acho o código do CI um dos mais bem escritos entre os >>>>>>>>>>>> frameworks, gosto da sua documentação, flexibilidade, organizção, >>>>>>>>>>>> mas >>>>>>>>>>>> infelizmente o framework não aproveitou o momento que teve/ainda >>>>>>>>>>>> tem e sua >>>>>>>>>>>> comunidade para evoluir. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>> Marcus Cavalcanti >>>>>>>>>>>> 21 9144-5068 >>>>>>>>>>>> www.marcuscavalcanti.net/blog >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> 2010/11/12 William Rufino <[email protected]> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> qual o motivo de não utilizar em um projeto mais robusto? >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> William Rufino >>>>>>>>>>>>> Desenvolvedor Web - Analista de Sistemas >>>>>>>>>>>>> 31 8875-3143 >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.williamrufino.com.br >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.websitesinteligentes.com.br<http://www.williamrufino.com.br/> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Em 12 de novembro de 2010 13:14, Marcus Cavalcanti < >>>>>>>>>>>>> [email protected]> escreveu: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Acho que nunca ninguém achou que o CI ia acabar, mas o ritmo de >>>>>>>>>>>>>> releases do CI beira o ridículo e quando alguma release sai, sai >>>>>>>>>>>>>> sem muito >>>>>>>>>>>>>> nada de novo. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Para mim isso não significa acabar, mas sim tornar o framework >>>>>>>>>>>>>> com cada vez menos adesão no mercado. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Infelizmente a Ellislab não prioriza o CI e sim seus produtos >>>>>>>>>>>>>> e acho que se ela fosse mais esperta, poderia usar mais o CI a >>>>>>>>>>>>>> seu favor, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> como fez a SpringSource, por exemplo, com o Spring. A >>>>>>>>>>>>>> SpringSource foi >>>>>>>>>>>>>> comprada pelo VMWare por 365 milhões de dólares. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Eu gosto muito do CI, mas com certeza nunca o usuario em um >>>>>>>>>>>>>> projeto mais robusto, apesar de o framework ser rápido e >>>>>>>>>>>>>> consumir poucos >>>>>>>>>>>>>> recursos de memória e processamento. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Marcus Cavalcanti >>>>>>>>>>>>>> 21 9144-5068 >>>>>>>>>>>>>> www.marcuscavalcanti.net/blog >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2010/11/12 Hermes Alves <[email protected]> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ontem enviei e-mail para Derek >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jones<http://ellislab.com/company/team/derek_jones/> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> e Leslie >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Camacho<http://ellislab.com/company/team/leslie_camacho/> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> perguntando >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sobre o destino do CodeIgniter e foi confirmado por ambos que >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> não há >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> pretensões em acabar, isso é apenas conversa fiada. Vejam >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> respostas: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *Resposta do Derek:* >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Hermes, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No, CodeIgniter is not dead, I'd advise to not pay much >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> attention to anything you >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> read on Twitter unless it comes from @EllisLab or >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> @codeigniter. We have two >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> commercial applications that are based on CI, so it is not >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> going anywhere. :) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -Derek >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *Resposta do Leslie:* >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > You still working at EllisLab? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > It is true that CodeIgniter will end? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > The >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > community is very saddened by the lack of interest and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> update of project >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > continuity. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Also not true. Some people like the progress, others don't. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> We have no intention of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> pleasing everybody. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > Could you give us accurate information about the future of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> CodeIgniter? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > The Brazilian community thanks you for your attention. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://salvator.me/site/pub/codeigniter_0_100 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sincerely, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Leslie, EllisLab >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.codeigniter.com.br >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://codeigniter.com.br/mailman/listinfo/lista_codeigniter.com.br >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --------------------------- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Oportunidade de negócio >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.franquiasargohost.net >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --------------------------- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.codeigniter.com.br >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://codeigniter.com.br/mailman/listinfo/lista_codeigniter.com.br >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> --------------------------- >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Oportunidade de negócio >>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.franquiasargohost.net >>>>>>>>>>>>>> --------------------------- >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.codeigniter.com.br >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://codeigniter.com.br/mailman/listinfo/lista_codeigniter.com.br >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> --------------------------- >>>>>>>>>>>>> Oportunidade de negócio >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.franquiasargohost.net >>>>>>>>>>>>> --------------------------- >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.codeigniter.com.br >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> http://codeigniter.com.br/mailman/listinfo/lista_codeigniter.com.br >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> --------------------------- >>>>>>>>>>>> Oportunidade de negócio >>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.franquiasargohost.net >>>>>>>>>>>> --------------------------- >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>>>>>>> http://www.codeigniter.com.br >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> http://codeigniter.com.br/mailman/listinfo/lista_codeigniter.com.br >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> --------------------------- >>>>>>>>>>> Oportunidade de negócio >>>>>>>>>>> http://www.franquiasargohost.net >>>>>>>>>>> --------------------------- >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>>>>>> http://www.codeigniter.com.br >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> http://codeigniter.com.br/mailman/listinfo/lista_codeigniter.com.br >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> --------------------------- >>>>>>>>>> Oportunidade de negócio >>>>>>>>>> http://www.franquiasargohost.net >>>>>>>>>> --------------------------- >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>>>>> http://www.codeigniter.com.br >>>>>>>>> http://codeigniter.com.br/mailman/listinfo/lista_codeigniter.com.br >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> --------------------------- >>>>>>>>> Oportunidade de negócio >>>>>>>>> http://www.franquiasargohost.net >>>>>>>>> --------------------------- >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> Eric Saboia - eric.saboia.org >>>>>>>> CSM, ZCE >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>>>> http://www.codeigniter.com.br >>>>>>>> http://codeigniter.com.br/mailman/listinfo/lista_codeigniter.com.br >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> --------------------------- >>>>>>>> Oportunidade de negócio >>>>>>>> http://www.franquiasargohost.net >>>>>>>> --------------------------- >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>>> http://www.codeigniter.com.br >>>>>>> http://codeigniter.com.br/mailman/listinfo/lista_codeigniter.com.br >>>>>>> >>>>>>> --------------------------- >>>>>>> Oportunidade de negócio >>>>>>> http://www.franquiasargohost.net >>>>>>> --------------------------- >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Eric Saboia - eric.saboia.org >>>>>> CSM, ZCE >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>> http://www.codeigniter.com.br >>>>>> http://codeigniter.com.br/mailman/listinfo/lista_codeigniter.com.br >>>>>> >>>>>> --------------------------- >>>>>> Oportunidade de negócio >>>>>> http://www.franquiasargohost.net >>>>>> --------------------------- >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> [email protected] >>>>> http://www.codeigniter.com.br >>>>> http://codeigniter.com.br/mailman/listinfo/lista_codeigniter.com.br >>>>> >>>>> --------------------------- >>>>> Oportunidade de negócio >>>>> http://www.franquiasargohost.net >>>>> --------------------------- >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Eric Saboia - eric.saboia.org >>>> CSM, ZCE >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> [email protected] >>>> http://www.codeigniter.com.br >>>> http://codeigniter.com.br/mailman/listinfo/lista_codeigniter.com.br >>>> >>>> --------------------------- >>>> Oportunidade de negócio >>>> http://www.franquiasargohost.net >>>> --------------------------- >>>> >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> [email protected] >>> http://www.codeigniter.com.br >>> http://codeigniter.com.br/mailman/listinfo/lista_codeigniter.com.br >>> >>> --------------------------- >>> Oportunidade de negócio >>> http://www.franquiasargohost.net >>> --------------------------- >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> Eric Saboia - eric.saboia.org >> CSM, ZCE >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> [email protected] >> http://www.codeigniter.com.br >> http://codeigniter.com.br/mailman/listinfo/lista_codeigniter.com.br >> >> --------------------------- >> Oportunidade de negócio >> http://www.franquiasargohost.net >> --------------------------- >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > [email protected] > http://www.codeigniter.com.br > http://codeigniter.com.br/mailman/listinfo/lista_codeigniter.com.br > > --------------------------- > Oportunidade de negócio > http://www.franquiasargohost.net > --------------------------- > >
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