Hi,

Problem is not only with Hotmail, I have gmail account and it is being
disabled every other day too.

Regards,
DV

On Sat, 5 Jun 2021, 23:12 Amir Sarabadani, <[email protected]> wrote:

> Being "at fault" is a misleading term here. It's a bad interaction between
> hotmail and mailman3, that's for sure but it doesn't make mailman3
> problematic here. I'm not saying it didn't start with the mailman3 upgrade
> but it doesn't make mm3 the party that needs fixing.
>
> A little bit of technical explanation. Hope that helps. mm2 used to send a
> completely different set of headers with the email. For example, These are
> headers of two different emails from the same mailing list in mm2 and mm3:
>
> mm2:
>
> To: [email protected]
> X-BeenThere: [email protected]
> X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
> Precedence: list
> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2625870431424236464=="
> Subject: [Cloud] [Cloud-announce] New Wikireplicas available, timeline 
> update, and Quarry migration
> X-BeenThere: [email protected]
> List-Id: Wikimedia Cloud Services general discussion and support 
> <cloud.lists.wikimedia.org>
> List-Unsubscribe: <https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/options/cloud>, 
> <mailto:[email protected]?subject=unsubscribe>
> List-Archive: <https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/cloud/>
> List-Post: <mailto:[email protected]>
> List-Help: <mailto:[email protected]?subject=help>
> List-Subscribe: <https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/cloud>, 
> <mailto:[email protected]?subject=subscribe>
>
> mm3:
> To: [email protected]
> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.80.0.2.43)
> X-MailFrom: [email protected]
> X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; 
> loop; banned-address; member-moderation; 
> header-match-cloud-announce.lists.wikimedia.org-0; nonmember-moderation; 
> administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; 
> no-subject; digests; suspicious-header
> X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.3
> Precedence: list
> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8712432623581038340=="
> Message-ID-Hash: JURBYMBXANC3LR6AWNCO26AB6CZH3Y7E
> X-Message-ID-Hash: JURBYMBXANC3LR6AWNCO26AB6CZH3Y7E
> X-MailFrom: [email protected]
> X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; 
> loop; banned-address; member-moderation; 
> header-match-cloud.lists.wikimedia.org-0; nonmember-moderation; 
> administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; 
> no-subject; digests; suspicious-header
> Reply-To: [email protected]
> Subject: [Cloud] [Cloud-announce] Mounts for Scratch NFS changing a bit 
> tomorrow (2021-05-27 around 20:00 UTC)
> List-Id: Wikimedia Cloud Services general discussion and support 
> <cloud.lists.wikimedia.org>
> Archived-At: 
> <https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/[email protected]/message/JURBYMBXANC3LR6AWNCO26AB6CZH3Y7E/>
> List-Archive: 
> <https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/[email protected]/>
> List-Help: <mailto:[email protected]?subject=help>
> List-Owner: <mailto:[email protected]>
> List-Post: <mailto:[email protected]>
> List-Subscribe: <mailto:[email protected]>
> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:[email protected]>
>
> It can be that hotmail needs X-BeenThere header which is removed (because 
> it's deprecated in 2007: 
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailman3_Migration#Email_filters)
> or the extra headers trigger the hotmail's spam detection. I'm clearly 
> speculating here as I have no knowledge of the internals of hotmail and can't 
> help you in that part but these headers doesn't make mm3 problematic.
>
>
> On Sat, Jun 5, 2021 at 11:19 PM Trijnstel wp <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>> I agree with Leon. Like I said: this didn't happen before the upgrade, so
>> perhaps the upgrade is the problem? And an email from the WMF to Hotmail
>> would indeed be more convincing... problem is that the CU-l emails do not
>> end up in my Junk email so nothing to do from my part.
>>
>> In any case, I disabled bounce processing for CU-l for now.
>>
>> Trijnstel
>> ------------------------------
>> *Van:* Leon Haanstra <[email protected]>
>> *Verzonden:* zaterdag 5 juni 2021 23:07
>> *Aan:* List for discussions related to list admins on lists.wikimedia.org
>> <[email protected]>
>> *Onderwerp:* [List admins] Re: Subscription disabled due to a bounce
>> score?
>>
>> It would be more convincing if such a request would come from someone
>> affiliated with the WMF, someone with authority, instead of a random nobody
>> like myself who represents nobody but their self. Also, the theory that
>> hotmail is the problem and that contacting them could resolve anything
>> needs further explaining/better arguments.
>>
>> Regads,
>>
>> Natuur12
>>
>> On Saturday, June 5, 2021, 10:58:27 PM GMT+2, Amir Sarabadani <
>> [email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>
>> It seems the checkuser-owner is being targeted by spammers. For now you
>> can disable bounce processing
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/postorius/lists/checkuser-l.lists.wikimedia.org/settings/bounce_processing
>>
>> From the look of the issue, it seems hotmail has a strict policy for spam
>> and/or it needs updating for mm3, maybe contact hotmail support for this
>> and explain that it's wikimedia and we just upgraded our mailman version
>> and they need to adapt their filters? Google has a button on spam emails
>> you can click to say "it's not spam" and it helps improve their spam
>> detection models. Maybe hotmail has something similar. If so, please use
>> that.
>>
>> HTH
>>
>> On Sat, Jun 5, 2021 at 8:16 PM Trijnstel wp <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>
>> PS. Note that since the upgrade more emails from the various mailing
>> lists were put by Hotmail in the Junk mail... That never happened before.
>>
>> Trijnstel
>> ------------------------------
>> *Van:* Trijnstel wp <[email protected]>
>> *Verzonden:* zaterdag 5 juni 2021 20:04
>> *Aan:* Federico Leva (Nemo) <[email protected]>; List for discussions
>> related to list admins on lists.wikimedia.org <
>> [email protected]>
>> *Onderwerp:* [List admins] Re: Subscription disabled due to a bounce
>> score?
>>
>> It's a weird situation. Like I told Kunal: I've never had problems
>> before, only after the upgrade and only for checkuser-l.
>>
>> I was afk for a few days, and only now I noticed my email got disabled
>> again on 1 June. So I missed quite a few emails. As checkuser-l isn't
>> archived I can't read them back (only when someone emails me the missing
>> emails...). I think we should do something about this on our part. I don't
>> think the problem is my email. Perhaps Hotmail as a whole?
>>
>> Trijnstel
>> ------------------------------
>> *Van:* Federico Leva (Nemo) <[email protected]>
>> *Verzonden:* dinsdag 1 juni 2021 17:32
>> *Aan:* List for discussions related to list admins on lists.wikimedia.org
>> <[email protected]>; Trijnstel wp <[email protected]>
>> *Onderwerp:* Re: [List admins] Subscription disabled due to a bounce
>> score?
>>
>> I was just notified of 25 unsubscriptions from the Wikidata mailing list
>> (and 2 on WikiIT-l). They were probably all "real" bounces, and mostly
>> they were former WMF or WMDE staffers whose mailbox was presumably
>> disabled, but I saw some addresses that I know for sure are working.
>>
>> Google, Microsoft and others are known to lie about mail delivery. It's
>> possible that by sending an unusual amount (or rate) of email to some
>> non-existing addresses we got somehow treated like spammers, and some
>> messages to existing mailboxes were treated as the kind of spam that is
>> bad enough to bounce back with a lie but not bad enough to be silently
>> discarded. I have no idea how to debug this for Google or Microsoft
>> mailservers but I've suggested one user whose email is on a personal
>> domain name to file a bug with any logs they might have. I hope that's
>> fine.
>>
>> Federico
>> _______________________________________________
>> Listadmins mailing list -- [email protected]
>> To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected]
>>
>> To request technical changes for a specific list, please instead create a
>> task in Phabricator. See https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Amir (he/him)
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Listadmins mailing list -- [email protected]
>> To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected]
>>
>> To request technical changes for a specific list, please instead create a
>> task in Phabricator. See https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
>> _______________________________________________
>> Listadmins mailing list -- [email protected]
>> To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected]
>>
>> To request technical changes for a specific list, please instead create a
>> task in Phabricator. See https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
>
>
>
> --
> Amir (he/him)
>
> _______________________________________________
> Listadmins mailing list -- [email protected]
> To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected]
>
> To request technical changes for a specific list, please instead create a
> task in Phabricator. See https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
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