Re: K's point

[MarkMos1]

In a message dated 4/3/2002 11:18:53 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Subj:Re: K's point Date:4/3/2002 11:18:53 PM Eastern Standard Time From:    [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Greg VanTongeren) Sender:    [EMAIL PROTECTED] To:    [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] CC:    [EMAIL PROTECTED] ----- Original Message ----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ; [EMAIL PROTECTED] ; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, April 03, 2002 7:24 PM Subject: Re: K's point In a message dated 4/3/2002 5:44:55 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: GV: > Once when K was asked what > > the process is, he said- 'I don't > > know, and I don't want to know.' > > That says a lot about K's point. > > SP: And his observation in no way, shape, or form, > goes contrary to what I have been saying: effort is > needed to bring about an inner change. The causal > relationship between effort and its effect is not > easily established, nor is it important. > > Here is an illustration: if you are addicted to food > for comfort and that has become a habit with you, it > will require a lot of effort on your part to give up > that habit. But when you give up that habit and start > eating and living healthy, it doesn't matter how you > got there. > > The old adage: no pains, no gains is very true. gv: say a man injures himself and because of disuse, certain muscles atrophy. To recover the use of that part of the body, he will have to endure some pain. The energetic aspect of our being that has atrophied from disuse so to speak becomes active by way of a typically painful process. But we can't know that process and there is no need to try to know or conceptualize it because it is a natural process, sort of like giving birth. mark: I don't think that the pain of strengthening muscles is appropriate here. That is, after all, physical pain, not psychological pain, psychological disorder, and harmful habits are inner disorder. gv: the psyche has its basis in the physical, in the brain and nervous system. If there is real change, it has a physical side to it. That is why the term mutation is sometimes used. mark: There is a difference between physical pain and psychological pain. If you are saying that psychological pain has a physical basis, then the difference is also a physical difference. For example, muscle changes are physcially very different from brain changes. gv: as I see it, consciousness as energy has established pathways and flows outward to objects of interest or desire and has become entangled with objects. If it were not so, it would be possible at any time to disengage attention/energy from anything including thoughts and feelings. mark: what do you mean by "disengage" attention/energy? Gv: When that disengagement  or emptying finally occurs, all the energies coalesce and the vibration is extremely intense. That  creates a great deal of tension and stress on the nervous system that can be quite painful. mark: why is it tense and stressful, is the nervous system resisting?