Matthias
This whole thread about the 12c lute interests many of us for a
number of reasons.
However, just for the moment, let us stay with this question of the
strings on the Mest lute.
I am not sure whether I have completely grasped your remarks about
the demi-file strings.
On the Kenneth Sparr pages, I read:
"On the inside of the back is a printed label: 'Raphael Mest in
Fiessen, Imperato / del Misier Michael Hartung in Pa- / dua me fecit,
Anno 1633'. "
I am not certain whether we should assume it was in its 12c form at
that date, but there is certainly no reason to consider it was
baroqued after 1700.
In which case, I would not like to assume that the demi-file are the
strings that were originally used on that lute. I am not sure if that
was what you were suggesting
Mathias, but demi-file are only mentioned after 1650, and don't seem
to have caught on until about 1700, or later.
On the other hand, the basses on the Mest lute are quite short for a
12c lute, not more than 71mm.
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~lsa/associated/database/dbdetail.php?
PID=348
As Rob Mackillop found on his 69mm Maler, pure gut basses of that
sort of length are very thick, and do present serious "intonation"
problems with the octave strings and with the trebles.
It seems more likely to me that the Mest lute would have had loaded
strings, initially, as the colour of these strings seem to indicate
for this other 12c lute, shown on the Aquila pages you mention:
http://www.aquilacorde.com/File0102.jpg
but when this technology was replaced by demi-file, and the loaded
strings worn out, the owner at that time could have changed to demi-
file, as certainly pure gut strings would not have been ideal.
Some other 12c lutes, such as the Wolf, have up to 80mm (see K. Sp.),
and some possibly more.
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~lsa/associated/database/dbdetail.php?
PIDF7
These models with very long basses could have been more suitable for
pure gut, or for lesser quality loaded strings, although they could
also have been developed for more sustain with loaded strings
(depending on whether the musicans who chose to play the 12c
instrument, revelled in the strong basses that the French Baroque
musicians seem to have spurned, keeping, in some cases, only "the
small eleventh", Burwell).
Indeed, Stephen Gottlieb tells me that this Mest lute-type is not
really successful when strung with pure gut (although this may not be
just due to the relatively short basses); and he has preferred to
construct a lute with basses up to 80mm, probably so as to have
strong, but not over thick, Pistoy basses, but in this case with a
stoppable string length of about 67mm. This "composite" lute was
based on the Rauwolf body, and the peg-box arrangement of a Dutch
painting in Glasgow, see the photos here:
http://lutegroup.ning.com/photo/photo/show?id=2106727%3APhoto%3A1849
On the other hand, I very much doubt whether such a lute would be
successful with full wire-wounds, as the basses would then become far
too thin. I have no idea how demi-file would be on Stephen's lute.
One possibility, is that the 12c lute (with long basses) remained
popular in England and Holland, just because good loaded strings were
not readily available in these countries.
Another possibility is simply that the taste for French music under
the influence of The French English Queen, Henrietta-Maria, was
rather conservative, and that a fashion created in France (according
to the author of Burwell), but later spurned, was carried on in
England and Holland. In England this was certainly true for the
Carolean Masque, which carried on the, by then, decadent French
Masque form, "Le Ballet =E0 Entree", in which the Queen had performed
herself, in her youth in France. We must remember that the Queen
surrounded herself with French musicians, including Jacques Gaultier,
who may or may not have been the inventor of the 12c lute, but
certainly played one, and was influential in its diffusion.
http://lutegroup.ning.com/photo/photo/show?id=2106727%3APhoto%3A112
It is possible that Jacques' name became so strongly associated with
this lute-type that its invention was attributed to him (Burwell),
but it in the prgramme for the Masque "Britannia Trumphans", in 1637,
he is described as "maker of lutes for masques", so he could have
been more directly involved in its creation.
http://tinyurl.com/2kcpcg
We may also note that he seems to have been an acquaintance of Mace,
whose "Monument" gives a large place to the 12c lute, and we learn
from an anecdote recounted by Mace, that if the 12c lute was spurned
in France, Jacques, may well have derided the new fashion for old
Bologna lutes, if we imagine the scene related here by Mace:
" There are diversities of Mens Names in Lutes; but the Chief Name
we most esteem, is Laux Maller, (...) Two of which Lutes I have seen
(pittifull Old,Batter'd, Crack'd Things) valued at 100 l. a piece. Mr
Gootiere, the Famous Lutenist in His Time, shew'd me One of Them,
which the King paid 100 l. for. (...). I have often seen Lutes of
three or four pounds price, far more Illustrious and Taking, to a
common Eye".
regards
Anthony
Le 2 juin 08 =E0 00:03, Mathias R=F6sel a ecrit :
> Dear Damian,
>
> please do send answers to the list, too, so that other may get to know
> your opinion directly instead of reading it from my quotes.
>
> "damian dlugolecki" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schrieb:
>> It is unfortunate that Mimmo made that grand leap of illogic. His
>> analysis
>> is normally quite sound.
>> But in this instance he is stretching the facts to fit his
>> hypothesis.
>
> Pls elaborate.
>
>> You haven't answered my point about lute construction. The advent
>> of wound
>> strings had an
>> effect on the construction of bowed instruments, thrust pitch
>> levels down,
>> and even made possible
>> instruments like the viola bastarda or the cello piccolo da
>> spalla. But
>> during the twilight of the era of the
>> lute they were still making extended necked lutes. This is firm
>> evidence
>> that the lute was for all time
>> strung with gut.
>
> The invention of theorbating (if that is a word) lutes was
> explained as
> solution of problems with bass strings. Players wanted to have
> extended
> bass registers, so thicker gut strings were needed. However, there's a
> technical limit to making thicker gut strings. So, extended necks with
> second pegboxes were invented so that longer gut strings could be used
> instead of thicker gut strings for the basses.
> Does that mean lute players rejected overspun gut strings once they
> were
> invented in, say, 1660? Simple answer is, no. And why should they. Did
> you try Mimmo's demi-file''s on a swan neck? Not bad, eh?
>
>> Don't get me wrong. I'm not here to evangelize about gut strings.
>
> That's okay with me. I'm into frsh nylgut strings >8)
>
>> telling the truth about the history of the lute, and if you are
>> serious
>> about discovering the sound world
>> of the lute, you have to explore the possibilities of gut strings.
>
> Well, telling the truth is a tall order, to tell the truth (sorry,
> couldn't resist), when evidence is lacking. At least, we have that
> Mest
> beast with its filthy overspun red-handed strings still in the
> bridge...
>
> Mathias
>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: ""Mathias R=F6sel"" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> To: "Lutelist" <[email protected]>
>> Cc: "damian dlugolecki" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2008 1:58 PM
>> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Double headed 12c
>>
>>
>>> "damian dlugolecki" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schrieb:
>>>>>> The fact that it had overspun basses on it at one
>>>>>> time is not evidence that this is how it was strung during the
>>>>>> 17th
>>>>>> century.
>>>
>>> The easiest way would be finding out from when the strings date.
>>>
>>>> Overspun strings begin to be used in the late 17th century, but
>>>> I don't
>>>> believe that the lute in any of it's forms
>>>> was ever strung with wound or demi filee strings.
>>>
>>> Well, it must have been. That's how the loose ends were to be found,
>>> sticking in the bridge holes of the Mest lute.
>>>
>>>> Everything we know about
>>>> lute construction right up to the
>>>> end of the era of the lute points to stringing with gut. Why
>>>> continue to
>>>> design extended necked lutes of overspun strings were readily
>>>> available
>>>> that
>>>> met the musical requirments?
>>>> Those remnants of wire are not evidence of anything.
>>>
>>> Perhaps you take what Mimmo has to say about them:
>>> "How do we know that open wound strings were really used in the 18th
>>> century lutes? One piece of evidence and several probative elements
>>> point in that direction: a) The direct evidence comes from the
>>> pieces of strings on a Lute by Raphael Mest. Half wound strings
>>> were in
>>> use only in the 18th century and it is hard to imagine a later
>>> addition
>>> of this particular kind of string on an instrument that had already
>>> fallen into disuse." (Source: http://www.aquilacorde.com/lutes.htm ,
>>> scroll down almost to the bottom).
>>> --
>>> Mathias
>>>
>>>>>>>>> Dear Collected Wisdom,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> is there someone on the list who is willing to share their
>>>>>>>>> experiences
>>>>>>>>> with double headed 12c lutes and related repertoire? I'm just
>>>>>>>>> about
>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>> enter that flowery meadow.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> What I'm interested in is
>>>>>>>>> - choice: What made you choose that type of lute (that
>>>>>>>>> luthier)?
>>>>>>>>> - measurements: Am I right in assuming that small mensur
>>>>>>>>> (about
>>>>>>>>> 55
>>>>>>>>> cm
>>>>>>>>> VSL) works better?
>>>>>>>>> - inferentially, luthiers: Who built your instrument and when?
>>>>>>>>> - tunings: which one do you prefer?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Any comments appreciated!
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> Mathias
>
>
>
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