Jean-Marie is of course absolutely correct that
there are contemporaneous accounts advocating
various distinctions and even clashes of the
differing temperaments for keyboard and fretted instruments,
and there were at various times accounts that
these clashes were good or necessary.
However, the past is a mixed bag, and when I do a
concert in meantone, or modified meantone, there
are times when I want it to be delightfully in
tune, as opposed to delightfully out-of-tune.
And for this, we have two pieces of evidence. The
first is, that tastini were invented exactly for
this purpose, and because it is kind of a pain to
implement, they must have really desired the effect.
The second is the emergence of a "meantone
favorable tunings"--here we see that in the
development of the early viola da gamba that the
F is solidified as an E--in order to move the F-Sharp to a more favorable fret.
On the plucked side we see the 6 course mandolin
with both a E and a B as opposed to an F and a C,
again allowing the sharps to be moved to a more favorable position.
So what we have, of course, is diversity--a
diversity that refelects in a way the many styles
of music we play. With cornetto, theorbo and organ, I want it in pure meantone.
For Corelli, I can enjoy more the different
temperaments to a greater degree with two
continuo lutes, organ and harpsichord--and a harp if possible!
dt
At 05:33 AM 6/18/2008, you wrote:
Dear Jean-Marie,
Many thanks for this interesting passage. It
confirms what I was saying, i.e. that keyboard
instruments were tuned with unequal semitones,
that the lute and viol were tuned in equal
temperament, and that fretted instruments were
regarded as inferior, because they were in equal temperament.
There is however, a problem when fretted
instruments and keyboard instruments are played
together. In your passage, the solution of
tuning keyboard instruments to equal temperament
is rejected as unsatisfactory. It should be the
other way round, i.e. fretted instruments tuning
to the keyboard. A lute or viol cannot be
fretted 100% in a meantone temperament, but one
can get pretty close, give or take a few dodgy
enharmonics. I assume Denis' ivory frets are what some of us call tastini now.
The question I would like answering, is how were
viols fretted, when they played consort music to
the organ. On page 242 of _Musick's Monument_,
Thomas Mace says that the main job of an organ
is to help keep the viols in tune:
"Because the Organ stands us in stead of a
Holding, Uniting-Constant-Friend; and is as a
Touch-stone, to try the certainty of All Things;
especially the Well-keeping the Instruments in Tune, &c."
If the viols and organ were in different
temperaments, the last thing an equally-tempered
viol player would want, is an unequally tempered
organ telling him he was out of tune all the
time. I conclude from Mace's remark, that viols
playing in consort with an organ, would have
adjusted their frets as close as they could to
match the temperament of the organ.
In this context, I continue my speculation that
baroque lutes (in all their various tunings)
were not played with keyboard instruments,
because there were too many problems getting the
instruments in tune with each other. I am aware
that Weiss and Baron composed music for flute
and lute, but they are very much the exception.
A baroque flute is not in equal temperament, but
a good player can bend notes a little to alter
the pitch, something a keyboard player cannot do.
Best wishes,
Stewart.
-----Original Message-----
From: Jean-Marie Poirier [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 18 June 2008 12:53
To: lute
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Meantone
Dear Stewart and all,
I am not a great enthusiast of meantone
temperament as a result of my readings of
concordant theoretical sources which do not seem
to advocate this particular tuning, and of my
experience in consort playing. Of course, I do
use it when requested to, no problem, but not so
often after all. And I would like to have your
opinion about this passage from Jean Denis,
"Traité de l'accord de l'espinette", Paris :
Ballard, 1601 (I know it's in French, but IMO
it's much better to approach this sort of text
in its original language), one among several of
the same period on the same subject :
"Les Theoriciens trouvent trois sortes de tons,
et trois sortes de semi-tons, sçavoir ton
majeur, ton mineur, et ton superflu; et aussi
trois sortes de semi-tons, semi-ton majeur,
semi-ton mineur, et semi-ton moyen, ce qui n'est
point en usage, sçavoir le ton mineur, et le
semi-ton moyen; et pour faire le ton mineur, il
est composé d'un semi-ton moyen et d'un
semi-ton mineur plus foible que le ton majeur:
Mais dans la pratique de la Musique, et en
nostre accord Harmonique, il ne [-p.12-] se
trouve point de ton mineur, ny de semiton moyen:
la difference des deux accords est, qu'en
l'accord qu'on nous presente, il n'y a ny
semi-ton majeur ny semi-ton mineur, mais le
semi-ton moyen et le ton majeur pareils aux
nostres; car pour faire le semi-ton moyen, on
baisse le semi-ton majeur, et ce faisant on
hausse le mineur, et par ce moyen tous les
semi-tons sont égaux. Or estant en l'assemblée
de fort honnestes gens, et entendant cet accord
que je trouvay fort mauuais et fort rude
à l'oreille, leur disant mon sentiment, et que
personne ne le pouvoit trouver bon, ils me
respondirent que ie n'y estois pas accoustumé.
Et je leurs dis, que si on leur presentoit un
festin de viandes amères et de mauvais goust,
et qu'on leur donnast du vinaigre à boire, dont
ils se pourroient plaindre avec raison: si on
leur disoit qu'ils n'y sont pas accoustumez, ce
ne seroit pas une bonne raison et bien
recevable, je voulus sçavoir à quoy cet accord
estoit bon; celuy qui avoit accordé l'Espinette
me dit qu'il estoit bon pour en jouër, et
détonner de semi-ton en semi-ton, et que tous
les accords se trouvoient bons par tout, et
qu'il s'accordoit mieux que le nostre avec le Luth et la Viole.
Je luy dis qu'il avoit mauvaise raison de
vouloir gaster le bon et parfait accord pour
l'accommoder à des Instruments imparfaits, et
qu'il falloit plustost chercher la perfection du
Luth et de la Viole, et trouver le moyen de
faire que les semi-tons fussent majeurs et
mineurs, comme nous les avons sur l'Espinette,
ce qui ne se peut faire avec les touches des
cordes dont on touche les Luths, pource qu'il
faudroit qu'elles fussent faites en pieds de
mousches; ce qui se peut faire par le moyen des
touches d'yvoire, que lon peut mettre par le
compas et par la proportion du Monochorde, et
par ce moyen on accordera le Luth et la Viole,
avec l'Espinnette, dans l'accord [-p.13-] musical et harmonique..."
In other words, it looks as if : keyboard
intruments = meantone temperamen ; fretted
instruments (lutes and viols) = equal temperament it seems...
All the best,
Jean-Marie
======= 18-06-2008 11:40:45 =======
>
>Dear Anthony,
>
>In writing "close to equal temperament", I was deliberately a little
>vague, because I have the frets on the baroque lute and guitar more or
>less equally spaced, but I haven't measured anything exactly. I use a
>tuning box and my ear. I think that's what they usually did in the past,
>but without the box.
>
>Best wishes,
>
>Stewart.
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Anthony Hind [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Sent: 18 June 2008 10:29
>To: Stewart McCoy
>Subject: Re: [LUTE] New Baroque lute/Meantone
>
>Stewart
> Could you make your "close to equal temperament" a little more
>precise.
>Perhaps that is not possible if you do it entirely by ear.
>Anthony
>
>
>
>
>To get on or off this list see list information at
>http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
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18-06-2008
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